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  • Originally posted by Gary View Post
    You will need to ask the Christians who perpetrated these crimes, all of whom used passages in the Bible as justification for their actions.
    I figured you'd take the lazy way out.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • Originally posted by William View Post
      so you agree there are errors, but just not big ones? I'm not talking about spelling or translation either.

      I dont really mean to get off on a tangent, but Matthew has jesus riding two donkey at the triumphal entry as if he misunderstood redundancy in text, he credited Jeremiah with something Zechariah said, he said that Isaiah said that a Virgin would conceive and that that referenced Jesus and Mary while Isaiah really said "young woman" and and young woman happened to give birth in Isaiah Ch 8.
      Actually, the two animals would have ridden alongside each other and look at the text. It says the disciples put their cloaks on the donkey and Jesus sat on them. The them refers to the cloaks. You can say Matthew was wrong, but there's no need to make him an idiot as if he thought you could ride two animals at once.

      With Isaiah, it's actually Isaiah 7 and yes, it does say young woman, but do you know what it said in the LXX?

      Matt and Lukes genealogies both say through Joseph but are horribly wrong - people usually say that Luke meant Mary, but this is really just wishful thinking. I mean, what discrepancy cant be "explained" in such a way?

      on the limited commission, were they to take their sandles or staffs or not?

      at jesus birth, each has a different story. which is right? if they're all right, how do you make it work with all the details?
      If the biggest discrepancies involves sandals, that's quite a lot, but as for the birth stories, you do realize they're years apart. Right? The genealogy meanwhile has four or five different ways of looking at it.

      ezekiel's prophecy of Tyre... Tyre isnt desolate and was rebuilt and is populated today, contrary to what Ezekiel said.
      Here's part 1 of this. Part 2 can be found from there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6VD63gI99U

      Jeremiah said that a levite will always be at the alter in Jerusalem and that a decedent of david would always be on the thrown. Jesus is the descendant of David, but he's from Judah, and priest after melcizedec not after Levi.
      Verse on the Levite? I just did a search on BibleGateway through Jeremiah and looked up Levite. Zero hits. And yes, the descendant of David is on the throne.

      I mean there's more. and I've heard the excuses, so since this is a tangent, I'll just acknowledge that you likely have "explanations" for them - but keep this in mind, all religions have explanations for their issues (Islam as well) and Like them, these excuses dont eliminate the issue, as the text says what it says not matter how much we plead for it to mean something else. You'll believe it regardless and I just do not.

      But saying that the Koran has textual issues but that the bible does not is not fair or accurate. you just make and believe excuses for the bible and dont want to hear or accept the excuses made and believed for the Koran.
      Inerrancy isn't a pillar for me. The resurrection is.

      if raising a man from dead and having him fly away is plausible, how can you say that the spread of rumors and misinformation would be implausible?
      Sure. Make the historical case for it. Make the case that the events accepted by scholars never happened.

      and really, there were no telephones, or email or internet. No good means of transportation. people were very superstitious and their education was poor. is it really hard to imagine wrong ideas persisting?
      Personally, this is really anthropological bigotry. You might be surprised, but people were not superstitious and credulous across the board back then and let's suppose some had poor education. Okay. How much education did you need to have to know dead people stayed dead?

      I think it shouldn't be when we take a step back and look at all the religions and ideas in the world, not only at that time, but even now. How would Islam have persisted if it werent true? How would Zorasterism still be around if it werent true? Why does it still thunder if Thor wasnt real? Anyone from any religion can make such arguments, but people arent machines and often times dont do the most rational things and there's no rhyme or reason for it.
      The last aren't thriving religions but with Islam, it's easy. Having the incentive of going on raids to get wealth and women can tempt anyone.

      We may disagree on where the line is, but i suspect we all agree that many if not most people make decisions based on bias, friends, parents, family, etc over objective truth and fact. If someone assumes something is true, they very seldom go and look it up to reverify - especially in the day before easy access to libraries, and internet.
      No. In the ancient world beliefs would have been formed on honor and shame primarily. You didn't even mention those.

      but we are discussing a man, who was born to a never had sex before virgin, so that he could teach us all, although he never wrote anything down, and then die for us as a sacrifice atonement in order to save us from the hell he created for us, but wants us to believe in him although he has made himself invisible and as much like an imaginary being as he could, and he then came back to life after 3 days and flew into heaven...
      You realize this is a total straw man. Right?

      and now people are not only trying to act as if this is the most likely scenario, but that it is impossible for anyone to have made any of this up?
      If Christianity was made up, it would not have included so much shameful material. If you were instructing people on how to not make up a religion in the ancient world, Christianity would be your prime exhibit.

      I mean, I have to say, it just sounds crazy. Scholars? what light do they really shed? They agree that people at that time believed this stuff as well as other stuff - but their belief does not equate fact or truth or even merit. and also, the experts in the fields of science, health and biology all agree that is impossible for virgin to give birth, or dead men to return to life, or for men to fly like superman - but we're not as quick to believe them.
      We all believe those are impossible without outside interference. If you hold to theism, upon what grounds can you reject miracles? As for scholars, yeah, I do think people who spend their lives studying something and have Ph.D.'s in the subject and pass peer-review could tell us something.

      You believe the universe had a creator, but make a leap to assume it was the Bible's God, and then that that God wants to deliver us a message, wanted to save us from anything, and wanted to sacrifice his son (while hating human sacrifice) all because the human authors of the bible claimed it so.
      More straw men. I don't assume it was the Bible's God. I argue for it.

      Do you believe that miracles were worked by people from other religions, or that it's only believable in the bible?
      I have no problem believing a miracle from another religion provided you show good evidence.

      William, typically, you've been much better compared to Gary, but this kind of posting is really beneath you. Straw manning the opposition does not suit you.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gary View Post
        Yea, I suggested that, but since the "majority of scholars" say there was an empty tomb, Nick et al wouldn't go for it. Of course, when I brought up that the majority of scholars date Mark to circa 70 AD and Matthew circa 80-90 AD, he then didn't want to accept the "majority" consensus...because he felt he knew more than the majority of experts.

        (But isn't that what I was doing with the empty tomb claim???)
        No. I actually gave an argument for the empty tomb. When you brought up Matthew, I gave an argument against your position and you just disregarded it.

        It's okay. We know your position isn't based on evidence but simply an emotional reaction.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by William View Post
          adrift, you seem to be doing what you are accusing Gary of a little.

          it's not really correct to say that you and most others thought about every little thing before you took christ as your savior. that's basically saying you waited until you knew everything so now there's nothing more for you to learn, so no way you'd have to reevaluate your faith. I dont think you really mean this and it would be quite an arrogant thing to say anyway, yeah?

          maybe Gary should stop saying Ancient (even though it's accurate) and you should not imply you are a better christian than he was. and let's not pretend that gary is the only acting like a jerk, there are enough jabs and snipes from several here, right?
          I stand by what I wrote.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
            Easier? It's hard for a way to think of you making it easier because it was never a challenge to begin with.



            I've never agreed to two or three, but it's irrelevant because my case doesn't depend on that.



            I accept 5, but it was not part of my argument.



            Alright. Let's watch another story where you don't deal with the actual case but give a "just-so" story so you can ignore all the pushback which you've done every other time before.



            Okay. Let's ask a few questions. Does Mrs. Jones live in an honor-shame society where deviant beliefs are looked down on and shunned or does she live in an individualistic society where having an unusual belief can even be a badge of honor?

            Is Mrs. Jones living in a community where her claims will be welcomed without serious question or is she living in a community where she will face shaming and persecution for her questions?

            Does Mrs. Jones belief involve acknowledging someone who was just recently put to death by the ruling authorities and thus challenging them in her face?

            Does the event involve skeptics of her worldview entirely coming to embrace her worldview?

            If there are appearances of a being to a large number of people, how is this explained since it can't be a hallucination?

            WHat are the stakes involved with the claim?

            Now dear readers, which is more likely of these two events since I've answered this?

            1) Gary will pause and say "You know, maybe I shouldn't be on this personal crusade now but should go and inform myself by reading the best scholars and come back later"

            Or

            2) Gary will keep going ignoring any pushback to his position and keep acting like he knows better than everyone else who's read more on this topic than he has.

            But let's get to his other posts.



            I was pressing you to accept the majority of what even non-Christian scholars say on the issues and I presented reasons why. I did not say "Majority says this, therefore it is so." That's your position.



            Prove it. Did you do a survey of SBL?



            Not a bit. The minimal facts approach doesn't rely on the Gospels at all.



            Then you don't know what you're talking about. The data used today is found in the authentic Pauline epistles.

            And for Dave, I agree with what OBP said on the empty tomb.

            It's also amusing that you point to the Johannine Comma as if this is some mind-blowing fact. Every Christian in this thread already knows about that. We're not blinking. I would suggest reading scholars like Hurtado and Bauckham. Perhaps get the book edited by Bird called "How God Became Jesus."

            As for religious violence, sure. Let's talk about the Crusades. Let's talk about how it was a defensive war when the East asked the West for help because the Muslims were killing people in Jerusalem. Let's talk about how it was seen as a fulfillment of "Love your neighbor" because if your neighbor is being murdered, maybe you should help him out. Let's talk about how it was not to be used as a means of evangelism. Let's talk about how evil actions done in it were regularly condemned. Let's talk about how the hospitallers were taking care of the wounded in battle, even wounded Muslims.

            For the Inquisition, let's talk about how the worst Inquisition, the Spanish one (Which no one expected) lasted 300 years and killed 3,000. Sure, that's 3,000 too many, but that's a rate of 10 people per year. Let's talk about how the State was the one behind most of it since going against the main religion was treasonous to the State. Let's talk about Henry Kamen's work on the topic.

            Now if you want to talk about what harm beliefs have done, how about talking about Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot and others, who under atheism, murdered millions of their own people in one century alone?

            And as for your idea that a dead body cannot be restored to life, did you give any actual argument a miracle can't occur, or do you want to take it on faith?
            Nick: "Okay. Let's ask a few questions. Does Mrs. Jones live in an honor-shame society where deviant beliefs are looked down on and shunned or does she live in an individualistic society where having an unusual belief can even be a badge of honor?"

            Well, the disciples believed that they saw a ghost walking on the Sea of Galilee, and, believed that little, arnery demons could inhabit the bodies of pigs. I would say that makes them candidates for the EXTRA-SUPERSTITIOUS Religious Persons category. I would put Mrs. Jones in the Average Superstitious Religious Persons category.

            Your "honor-shame society" is a worn out record. I suggest you give it a break. If first century Jewish society believed that an invisible middle-eastern God wrote with his finger to make a list of Do's and Don'ts on top of a desert mountain over a thousand years prior, and, that it was necessary to chop off part of your baby boy's penis to please this same middle-eastern deity, then I would say that believing that this same foreskin-hating deity had sent his son (which in reality is himself) to earth to die and reanimate three days later to redeem mankind from ancestral-forbidden-fruit-eating sins is not a far stretch of the imagination.
            Last edited by Gary; 07-28-2015, 04:33 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gary View Post
              Nick: "Okay. Let's ask a few questions. Does Mrs. Jones live in an honor-shame society where deviant beliefs are looked down on and shunned or does she live in an individualistic society where having an unusual belief can even be a badge of honor?"

              Well, the disciples believed that they saw a ghost walking on the Sea of Galilee, and, believed that little, arnery demons could inhabit the bodies of pigs. I would say that makes them candidates for the EXTRA-SUPERSTITIOUS Religious Persons category. I would put Mrs. Jones in the Average Superstitious Religious Persons category.
              And we know none of that could have happened because we know miracles don't occur because.....

              Well, no argument yet! Just take it on faith! Please don't make Gary back an argument!

              Your "honor-shame society" is a worn out record. I suggest you give it a break.
              No. It's peer-reviewed scholarship. I suggest you crack open a book and learn something.

              If first century Jewish society believed that an invisible middle-eastern God wrote with his finger to make a list of Do's and Don'ts on top of a desert mountain over a thousand years prior, and, that it was necessary to chop off part of your baby boy's penis to please this same middle-eastern deity, I would say that believing that this same foreskin-hating deity had sent his son to earth to redeem mankind from ancestral-forbidden-fruit-eating sins is not a far stretch of the imagination.
              And Gary chooses route number two as predicted! It would be horrid to have to read scholarship!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                And we know none of that could have happened because we know miracles don't occur because.....

                Well, no argument yet! Just take it on faith! Please don't make Gary back an argument!



                No. It's peer-reviewed scholarship. I suggest you crack open a book and learn something.



                And Gary chooses route number two as predicted! It would be horrid to have to read scholarship!
                Nick. Listen really, really closely.

                Just as I do not need to do a five year, in depth, study of the writings of every Muslim scholar on the Holy Koran to know that the teachings and beliefs of Islam are based on superstition, I do not need to read your Christian "scholars" for the very same reason! I have a brain and an education. I don't need a PhD in Voodoo-ology to know that Voodoo is nonsense!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                  I have a brain . . .
                  It's not very well utilized though.
                  ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                    Nick. Listen really, really closely.

                    Just as I do not need to do a five year, in depth, study of the writings of every Muslim scholar on the Holy Koran to know that the teachings and beliefs of Islam are based on superstition, I do not need to read your Christian "scholars" for the very same reason! I have a brain and an education. I don't need a PhD in Voodoo-ology to know that Voodoo is nonsense!
                    And Gary takes the lazy way again!

                    Just as lazy as an agnostic fundamentalist as he was as a Christian fundamentalist!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      I think you totally misread the quoted bit. My critique was based on Gary's approach to discussion and debate in general, and not to his personal beliefs. I would have (and have) said the same to a Christian if the Christian's debate technique consisted of derision and talking down to people who are better educated on a subject than they are. The old saying "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" comes to mind.
                      Skeptics have been debating Christians for two millennia using historical data and philosophical theory, and what good has it done??

                      I believe that modern society has advanced to the point that belief in flying witches, spell-casting warlocks, and their equivalents, should only be things seen and believed in the movies. It is time to expose ALL superstitions for the silly fantasies that they are. Edited by a Moderator

                      Moderated By: CP

                      You are a guest on a Christian site. It is not necessary for us to allow you to post blasphemy. Please tone it down a bit, and refrain from this type of conduct. Thanks.

                      ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                      Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                      Last edited by Cow Poke; 07-28-2015, 05:30 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                        And we know none of that could have happened because we know miracles don't occur because.....

                        Well, no argument yet! Just take it on faith! Please don't make Gary back an argument!



                        No. It's peer-reviewed scholarship. I suggest you crack open a book and learn something.



                        And Gary chooses route number two as predicted! It would be horrid to have to read scholarship!
                        "It's peer-reviewed scholarship."

                        Edited by a Moderator

                        Moderated By: CP

                        See prior post notice

                        ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                        Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                        Give us a break with your "scholarship" nonsense. It's not scholarship, its voodoo-ology, just admit it.
                        Last edited by Cow Poke; 07-28-2015, 05:31 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                          "It's peer-reviewed scholarship."

                          Edited by a Moderator Give us a break with your "scholarship" nonsense. It's not scholarship, its voodoo-ology, just admit it.
                          No. It's not. Do you think secular institutions that peer review this material are ran by evangelical Christians?

                          Take off the tin-foil hat dude. You're becoming more and more of a train wreck.
                          Last edited by Cow Poke; 07-28-2015, 05:31 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                            No. It's not. Do you think secular institutions that peer review this material are ran by evangelical Christians?

                            Take off the tin-foil hat dude. You're becoming more and more of a train wreck.
                            Let me let you in on a little secret, Nick. NO NT scholar at an evangelical Christian university or seminary has the freedom to express his honest, personal, scholarly opinion on any subject that he or she chooses. He or she MUST stay within the doctrinal statement of their respective Christian institution, and many of them have been forced to sign such a document prior to being hired. Bottom line: Even if an evangelical NT scholar did NOT believe that the empty tomb was historical, he would lose his job if he ever said so publically.

                            That is not "scholarship", that is censorship and propaganda.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                              Let me let you in on a little secret, Nick. NO NT scholar at an evangelical Christian university or seminary has the freedom to express his honest, personal, scholarly opinion on any subject that he or she chooses. He or she MUST stay within the doctrinal statement of their respective Christian institution, and many of them have been forced to sign such a document prior to being hired. Bottom line: Even if an evangelical NT scholar did NOT believe that the empty tomb was historical, he would lose his job if he ever said so publically.

                              That is not "scholarship", that is censorship and propaganda.
                              So you don't think ANE culture was a honour/shame based culture?

                              If so, then you're not worth the time. You can't even be bothered researching basic facts.

                              P.S. I see you complaining on blogs that you don't know how to formally debate. It literally takes a google search to figure out to do a formal debate. You don't need to be formally trained on the subject.
                              "It's evolution; every time you invent something fool-proof, the world invents a better fool."
                              -Unknown

                              "Preach the gospel, and if necessary use words." - Most likely St.Francis


                              I find that evolution is the best proof of God.
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                              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                                Let me let you in on a little secret, Nick. NO NT scholar at an evangelical Christian university or seminary has the freedom to express his honest, personal, scholarly opinion on any subject that he or she chooses. He or she MUST stay within the doctrinal statement of their respective Christian institution, and many of them have been forced to sign such a document prior to being hired. Bottom line: Even if an evangelical NT scholar did NOT believe that the empty tomb was historical, he would lose his job if he ever said so publically.

                                That is not "scholarship", that is censorship and propaganda.
                                Oh wow! SEminaries have doctrinal statements! No joke! Seriously?!

                                Whoa. I mean like, this is a total game changer dude.....

                                I mean, I know I've attended them and spoken at conferences by them and everything but they have doctrinal statements?

                                Wow!

                                Yeah. You know why people sign on to teach at those Seminaries? Because they've studied the information for years and they agree with what the Seminary teaches. However, notice I did not say evangelical Christian university. Let's look at what I said.

                                Do you think secular institutions that peer review this material are ran by evangelical Christians?
                                Let's look at one word in there.

                                SECULAR.

                                You see, if you had read what I said, you would have known that saying something about evangelical seminaries and universities doesn't change what I wrote. I was talking about "secular" scholarship.

                                Now do you have anything relevant to that topic or do you want to try to get me to say scholarship is bunk again?

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