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  • If a miracle in another religion is true, that doesn't go against Christianity or Christian theism. In fact, it could help us since it would show miracles are possible.

    If someone is of an atheistic persuasion or highly skeptical, just one miracle could throw a monkey wrench into their entire worldview.

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    • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
      I do not. You are much more reasonable than Gary is.



      Understandable position and even though I hold the conclusion that it is true, I do not think we should have the position of never questioning the book. The book includes questioning the God of the book. If you can question God, why not the book?



      I am extremely skeptical of prophecy claims to, but I would honestly recommend starting with the resurrection. Also, don't make inerrancy an issue. It's not an essential. I know very devout Christians who I don't doubt love Jesus more than I do who deny inerrancy.



      Sure, but I would advise here to study the language and idioms of the people. We use the same today when a football team is said to have massacred another one.



      And that's also understandable. I think one of the best books on this lately that has come out is by my friend Dee Dee Warren looking at Matthew 24 called "It's Not The End of the World." I interview her this Saturday on the book. It's a look at the prophecy in Matthew 24.



      No. I wouldn't. I would take such seriously, but I would also be willing to say some could fall outside of my own personal area of expertise. I do not dare claim to be an expert on every prophecy out there. I still point to the resurrection. If a prophecy was in error, well I'd have to rethink my stance on inerrancy. I still have the resurrection. If the resurrection is in error, I must rethink everything.
      thanks. I'll try to look into your book recommendations when I can.

      do you think one must be an expert?

      if you read something, say in the Koran, that seemed odd or wrong or out of place, would you consult the experts or dismiss the religion? Whatever your answer, is this how you treat the bible, or do you treat it with a bit more care or give it any more leeway?

      when i was a christain and even now, i worry about bias. Am I being honest with myself? Am I being fare? I suppose most of us do.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by William View Post
        John 20:31 comes to mind.

        Do you have a passage that aligns with your thought?


        John 20:30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe[b] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

        Sounds like evidence being given to me.

        Perhaps you meant another verse?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
          If a miracle in another religion is true, that doesn't go against Christianity or Christian theism. In fact, it could help us since it would show miracles are possible.

          If someone is of an atheistic persuasion or highly skeptical, just one miracle could throw a monkey wrench into their entire worldview.
          i can agree with the latter.

          but a miracle in another in another religion may throw a monkey wrench into the christian notion that is is the one and only. Do you think miracles happened in other religions?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by William View Post
            thanks. I'll try to look into your book recommendations when I can.

            do you think one must be an expert?

            if you read something, say in the Koran, that seemed odd or wrong or out of place, would you consult the experts or dismiss the religion? Whatever your answer, is this how you treat the bible, or do you treat it with a bit more care or give it any more leeway?

            when i was a christain and even now, i worry about bias. Am I being honest with myself? Am I being fare? I suppose most of us do.
            I interestingly read something about Muslim beliefs recently that struck me as odd and something I hadn't heard before.

            I contacted a friend of mine who is a Muslim and who has done a number of debates on Unbelievable? and asked him about it and he told me that yes, Muslims do indeed believe what was said.

            When I dialogue with a Muslim, I do not tend to speak on the Koran because I am not an expert in it. I stick to what the New Testament says.

            You do not need to be an expert to question, but if you are going to be speaking on a topic in text or oral format or anything like that, you need to be someone who has studied the text well. Having a blog or a podcast or anything like that alone does not necessitate that you are an expert.

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            • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post


              John 20:30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe[b] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

              Sounds like evidence being given to me.

              Perhaps you meant another verse?
              i don't know that I was. maybe i misunderstood your previous post.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by William View Post
                i can agree with the latter.

                but a miracle in another in another religion may throw a monkey wrench into the christian notion that is is the one and only. Do you think miracles happened in other religions?
                I know of a Muslim man who told me that he was healed of Prostate cancer after prayer.

                I had no reason to doubt that.

                If you think there is a miracle in another religion worthy of being studied, then feel free to show it.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by William View Post
                  i don't know that I was. maybe i misunderstood your previous post.
                  I'm saying that faith isn't not "believing what you know ain't so". Nor is it "blind faith". It's trust in someone who's earned it. Basically it's the same as loyalty. That passage gives evidence for others that they might pledge said loyalty to God. While you may argue that the evidence is insufficient, it's wrong to say it's not based on evidence. Gary is going by the blind "faith" definition in his point. However, that's not how the Bible uses it. In fact, the Greek word is "pistis", and is one that is at times used to indicate forensic evidence. So, to say that faith has nothing to do with evidence, or is based on a lack of it, kind of misses the point.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                    I interestingly read something about Muslim beliefs recently that struck me as odd and something I hadn't heard before.

                    I contacted a friend of mine who is a Muslim and who has done a number of debates on Unbelievable? and asked him about it and he told me that yes, Muslims do indeed believe what was said.

                    When I dialogue with a Muslim, I do not tend to speak on the Koran because I am not an expert in it. I stick to what the New Testament says.

                    You do not need to be an expert to question, but if you are going to be speaking on a topic in text or oral format or anything like that, you need to be someone who has studied the text well. Having a blog or a podcast or anything like that alone does not necessitate that you are an expert.
                    true. and reading a lot of books doesnt make one an expert either. I have a degree and several years of experience, but I wouldnt call myself an expert in my field just yet. But I am sure there are somethings you dismiss without much investigation, whether it be dinosaurs in the amazon, lake monsters, bigfoot or ancient aliens, whatever, right?

                    like you, I like to look into things before I form an absolute opinion about them, but there can always be more, i suppose. And I suppose the amount or degree depends on the topic and specific too.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by William View Post
                      true. and reading a lot of books doesnt make one an expert either. I have a degree and several years of experience, but I wouldnt call myself an expert in my field just yet. But I am sure there are somethings you dismiss without much investigation, whether it be dinosaurs in the amazon, lake monsters, bigfoot or ancient aliens, whatever, right?

                      like you, I like to look into things before I form an absolute opinion about them, but there can always be more, i suppose. And I suppose the amount or degree depends on the topic and specific too.
                      It does. The New Testament is a difficult field studying a book from another time, place, culture, and language.

                      It's why I find people like Gary too simplistic in how they deal with the text.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                        I'm saying that faith isn't not "believing what you know ain't so". Nor is it "blind faith". It's trust in someone who's earned it. Basically it's the same as loyalty. That passage gives evidence for others that they might pledge said loyalty to God. While you may argue that the evidence is insufficient, it's wrong to say it's not based on evidence. Gary is going by the blind "faith" definition in his point. However, that's not how the Bible uses it. In fact, the Greek word is "pistis", and is one that is at times used to indicate forensic evidence. So, to say that faith has nothing to do with evidence, or is based on a lack of it, kind of misses the point.
                        i'm saying trust works both ways. what if god is just in your imagination? You trust him as completely as others trust their gods that you reject and make believe. One can have faith in God even if they know for sure (like abraham knew, and moses knew and gideon, etc) just like you have faith in your friends or mother or father or whomever.

                        Knowing God is real, without question, does not diminish faith. Knowing that the authors of the bible were truthful in their claims would not deminish faith - I mean, knowng is only half the battle.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                          If it was the other way around you'd be posting from a jail cell if at all. (Not saying you're guilty. I don't think that at all, but a jury wouldn't listen.)
                          Try grabbing a strange woman's butt and then sext her after she tells you not to, and see what happens. It's an alien concept to women like such as her that a man is not into the idea of getting mixed-up with another lady - when I can barely handle one. After that, my nightmare began and her Dad caused a lot of problems for me enough that I'd have taken a week or so in jail in place of them.

                          The seminary I was attending had leadership that went after my father-in-law. I spoke up in his defense. THat would not end well.
                          Right, I remember that now. Didn't Habermas try to get the university to reverse it?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by William View Post
                            i'm saying trust works both ways. what if god is just in your imagination? You trust him as completely as others trust their gods that you reject and make believe. One can have faith in God even if they know for sure (like abraham knew, and moses knew and gideon, etc) just like you have faith in your friends or mother or father or whomever.
                            I'm saying that what you are describing is not faith in the Biblical sense. It's about trust to those who have proved themselves worthy of it. Something in your imagination can't do that.

                            Knowing God is real, without question, does not diminish faith. Knowing that the authors of the bible were truthful in their claims would not deminish faith - I mean, knowng is only half the battle.

                            You're missing the point entirely. What Gary describes is not what the Bible means by "faith" at all. His version relies on a "blind faith" definition. I don't see how you're not getting this.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
                              Try grabbing a strange woman's butt and then sext her after she tells you not to, and see what happens. It's an alien concept to women like such as her that a man is not into the idea of getting mixed-up with another lady - when I can barely handle one. After that, my nightmare began and her Dad caused a lot of problems for me enough that I'd have taken a week or so in jail in place of them.
                              This is also one reason I in ministry try to watch everything I do with women, aside from family of course. I wouldn't ride in a car alone with another woman or go to a meal with another woman alone. This is so even for women that I trust. I try to limit my communications with women and if a woman came to me for counseling, I'd either refer her to Allie or make sure Allie was there the whole time.


                              Right, I remember that now. Didn't Habermas try to get the university to reverse it?
                              I'm sure he did, and no luck came from it. Habermas was thrown over the bus. Even now there are seminaries that won't let Mike speak because of this. Beyond ridiculous.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                                Made to accompany worship, and made to be worshiped are very different things. Oh, and yes, worshiping a book, or other inanimate object is worse than not obeying and respecting God.



                                The thing is we do have an idea of when it was written, and due to textual criticism we are practically certain what the originals said(95% accuracy for OT, 99% for the NT). Did you read the article in full? It goes into a lot, and I don't see how you could have gotten to this response unless you basically skimmed it. If you would have read it, you would have noticed this.

                                Source: Tektonics.org

                                So the charge of "bibliolatry," while unfortunately sometimes true or appearing to be so, is nevertheless not a true representation of Christian belief. Moreover, given the circumstances, it is clear that "the Word of God" for most people was not what was written on paper, but was the original idea (what I have called the "home office" copy) recorded on paper. Few could have appreciated the significance of a written, inerrant original document.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                Please read through the whole article, as I only gave a very brief description of one of it's main points. It has more points, and they are good too. Two of the other major points I will sum up are as follows*. 1) To maintain make all copies inerrant would be extremely coercive, and it's pretty clear that God wants us to make a choice. He wants us to be disciples. 2) Inerrant copies would be impossible for mankind to handle due to our very different understandings.

                                *These follow from the fact that the originals would be subject to many problems if they survived, a big one being idolatry. Others stem from a similar reverence for the texts in question.
                                "The thing is we do have an idea of when it was written, and due to textual criticism we are practically certain what the originals said(95% accuracy for OT, 99% for the NT). "

                                I see Christians make this argument frequently, but I believe that there is a big hole in this argument.

                                Let's imagine that we have 1,000,000,000 copies/manuscripts about Story X, but we do not have the original. Even if all one billion copies agree with one another 100%, that does NOT guarantee that any of the copies correctly tell the original story. For instance, let's say that Randy wrote the original story. But Randy did not widely share his work and eventually his story is lost or destroyed. However, Bob read Randy's work, and since he couldn't take Randy's book down to Kinko's in the first century and copy it, he borrowed Randy's book and made a copy of it. However, when making a copy, Bob added new details to Randy's original story, but decided to still call his book, "The Gospel of Randy", because Randy was an alleged eyewitness to the events and therefore Randy's name would carry more weight in authenticating Bob's book.

                                Bob's book becomes widely circulated and billions of copies are made of it over the next 1,500 years, and all these copies of the Gospel of Randy are consistent, containing no major discrepancies in these billions of copies.

                                Question: Do we have the original Gospel of Randy as written by RANDY?

                                Answer: No. We do not. We have billions of copies of BOB'S Gospel of Randy. We have no idea what the original gospel written by Randy said.
                                Last edited by Gary; 07-27-2015, 11:58 AM.

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