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Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

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  • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Except that there is no promise of protection in this life. God won't save you from physical death. He can, but don't count on it.
    True, but Christians say that the all-powerful, all-knowing Creator of the Universe promises to be with you and comfort you in your times of trouble.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mikeenders View Post
      Gary your density is just to thick to get through. The idea that because in 1 Cor 15 there was (or was not ) a universal creed of the church in no way shape or form means that it must be mentioned in acts. Thats just stupid. The whole thing is stupid. If this were a universal creed of the church then it is OBVIOUS it would have to change.

      What would be the point of having a creed where you said 500 witnessed the resurrection at once with most remaining alive in the second and third century church when they thenwould all be dead?

      Do you ever THINK?
      Then why do Christians today use the Creed in First Corinthians 15 as one of the main pieces of evidence for their supernatural claim of a resurrection/reanimation?

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      • Originally posted by Mikeenders View Post
        Take Ferguson's claims and run with them. He impresses you not me - but his lofty arrogance that he thinks he can question Simon Greenleaf on the law is amusing. John claims to be a witness so your claim of "even in the Bible" is a lie.

        NOTE TO ALL

        We now have a new requirement. Unless a person was in the tomb when Jesus rose from the dead we have no eye witnesses of his ressurection. Being dead and then being seen alive is insufficient


        ROFL
        If I claimed that my grandfather died forty years ago, but that three days later his grave was found open and empty, and several hours later he appeared to me in a superhero, immortal body, spoke to me, let me touch him and then flew off into the clouds to never be seen again, would you accept my testimony as evidence for a resurrection or simply evidence for my BELIEF in a resurrection? Unless I can describe my grandfather pushing his way out of his grave, would any rational person accept my statement of a post-death appearance of my grandfather as evidence that he had been truly resurrected and that he had truly flown without any mechanical assistance into outer space, simply based on my good word and the fact that my grandfather's tomb was found empty??
        Last edited by Gary; 09-17-2015, 05:23 PM.

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        • Your grandfather never claimed to be the Messiah.
          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
            Nope. Impossible for you to understand I know, but there's no way I'm guessing.
            So you are 100% sure that an invisible God spoke to you, moved you, or lead you to believe that Jesus of Nazareth, a man who lived and died 2,000 years ago, is the eternal Creator, Ruler of Heaven and Earth, and told you/moved you/led you to worship Jesus and pray to Jesus as your Savior and Lord/Master? You may feel very, very certain of this, Little Joe, but are you really saying that it is absolutely impossible that you could be wrong?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              No Gary - (and admittedly, I got the order wrong earlier)
              2/ Demonstrate that there are sufficient grounds to believe that the founding apostles and others involved in the promulgation of the Biblical texts were bare faced liars. It is not possible that they were misguided. Either their claims were factual, or they were lies. Demonstrate that there is sufficient cause to believe that the founding apostles (among others) were liars.
              You continue to repeat this claim, Tabby, that I have accused the founding apostles and the authors of the Bible to be liars. Please demonstrate where I have made this statement as a fact and not just listed it as a possibility (although an unlikely possibility, in my opinion).

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              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                No Gary - provide the proof that the writers of the New Testament were lying.
                Provide proof that I anywhere stated as a fact that the writers of the New Testament were lying.

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                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  Jesus appearing to James - not a particularly significant event ... appearing to women now - that makes a statement.
                  Then why do Christian apologists and Christians on this thread make such a big deal out of Paul's claim that Jesus appeared to James? Let's just ignore it and leave it out of the discussion, shall we?

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                  • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                    No. Look up what a high context society is. Background information need not be repeated.

                    Possibly true, but it is also possible that the claim of an appearance to James and the Five Hundred was not credible and this is why no one in later Christian writings mentions these two claims.

                    You can say "implausible" but you cannot say "impossible", Nick. This is just one of the many dozens of assumptions that hold together the orthodox/conservative Christian belief system.

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                    • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                      Then why do Christians today use the Creed in First Corinthians 15 as one of the main pieces of evidence for their supernatural claim of a resurrection/reanimation?
                      I'd venture to say most Christians today do not identify a creed in 1 cor 15 nor do they care. Meanwhile why shouldn't they use a historical narrative from Paul in the bible even if its not a creed. Bottom line is any CREED that stated that people were alive that were all dead would have to be changed. If its a historical statement then its fine and fine to use. You have no point

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                      • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                        Sad. Very sad.

                        I had hoped that at least Stein would begin to see just how preposterous this claim is and just how weak the evidence for it is.

                        On skeptic blogs, which are populated mostly with ex-Christians, we discuss just how bizarre it is that at one time we too held to your positions and how now that we have left Christianity we see just how nonsensical these arguments and positions really are. How can it be that two groups of intelligent, educated people can see the "evidence" so very, very differently? I think that there are only two possible explanations:

                        1. An evil demon or devil really has blinded non-believers to the real Truth.

                        or

                        2. Christians are thoroughly (and in many cases hopelessly) brainwashed.
                        Typical Garian false dichotomy.
                        I know that many of you consider me a troll, here just to stir up a fight. It is true that I do enjoy a good "brawl in the mud", but I also do really care about the truth. I really do care that others see the truth. I really do care that each of YOU sees the truth.
                        No, you don't. You desperately want people to follow you in your folly in order to validate it.
                        And, I really do believe that conservative Christianity is a cult because it uses mankind's fear of death and what happens after death as a billy club to control people. No loving deity would threaten people he loves with punishment for not loving him back.
                        Then perhaps you need to better investigate "conservative" Christianity and why "conservative Christians" believe what they do.
                        Please use your brains, folks. Please ignore the "experts" and use good ol' common sense: dead bodies do not walk out of their graves with new superhero, immortal bodies to fly off into outer space. It's science fiction. It's a tall tale and nothing more.
                        Please explain how ignoring the experts is using our brains.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

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                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          Interesting

                          1 Corinthians 15, 37 includes an early creed about Jesus' death and resurrection which was probably received by Paul. The antiquity of the creed has been located by most biblical scholars to no more than five years after Jesus' death, probably originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.

                          I haven't found anything showing a contrary claim, beyond that some expand the time frame to seven years.

                          So - Within 5 to 7 years of Jesus' death, the story regarding his resurrection is in circulation - and yet, we have no record showing any gain-sayers challenging the story - not Christian, nor Jew, nor Roman. Seems kind of odd that the governing authorities of the time (not so much the Romans, because the Jews and their internecine squabbles weren't anything particularly significant) should have made no response to the circulation of a rumour that they could easily have demonstrated false.

                          So the problem remains for Gary - how is he going to show that the early writers were lying? If he can't do that, he's got no case.
                          Repeating a strawman over and over again, does not make it any more true.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                            Already answered when the naming of witnesses is mentioned. You're expecting the Gospels to be exhaustive. They're not. If anything, this could serve as greater testimony of the creed since the writers could include the other witnesses that were not cited in the Creed.
                            Possible, but also possible that the reason the authors of all the other books in the New Testament did not mention James and the Five Hundred, is that they decided that the list of witnesses listed by Paul in First Corinthians 15 was inaccurate/not credible.

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                            • Originally posted by Mikeenders View Post
                              I'd venture to say most Christians today do not identify a creed in 1 cor 15 nor do they care. Meanwhile why shouldn't they use a historical narrative from Paul in the bible even if its not a creed. Bottom line is any CREED that stated that people were alive that were all dead would have to be changed. If its a historical statement then its fine and fine to use. You have no point
                              If the Creed's list of witnesses to the Resurrection is no longer of any importance, then why do apologists rely so heavily upon it?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                Typical Garian false dichotomy.

                                No, you don't. You desperately want people to follow you in your folly in order to validate it.

                                Then perhaps you need to better investigate "conservative" Christianity and why "conservative Christians" believe what they do.

                                Please explain how ignoring the experts is using our brains.
                                Because your experts are only experts in early Christian beliefs. They are not experts as to the possibility or likelihood of first century resurrections/reanimations. NO ONE witnessed the reanimation of a dead body. Even if 70,000 first century Christians wrote down that Jesus had appeared to all of them at the same time and in the same place this would not be proof he really did. Seventy thousand Roman Catholics believe that the 2,000-years-dead Virgin Mary appeared to them in Fatima, Portugal, all at the same time, and in the same place, but for some strange reason this "appearance" to tens of thousands of eyewitnesses has yet to make it's way into any public university history textbook as an "historical fact".

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