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Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

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  • Originally posted by Gary View Post
    Strawman. I never said that Christians made anything up. People who knowingly make things up are not willing to die for those assertions. The willingness of early Christians to die for their beliefs is good enough proof for me and most skeptics that they really did believe that Jesus had been resurrected.
    When you hyperventilate about the stories maybe being different than what actually occurred and argue that there was no way for people to check on their accuracy, then you are implicitly claiming that Christians made them up.
    Here is how it very well may have happened: Peter had one of these very vivid visions, then Andrew had a vision, then John had a vision, then more and more disciples are having visions, the story gets passed around and within months or years, the story is that Jesus had appeared to Peter, Andrew, and John at the same time, then to FIVE HUNDRED disciples at the same time, and forty to sixty years later, we get the story we have today in the gospels.
    And RIGHT HERE, IN THE VERY SAME POST, you are CLAIMING that Christians "made up" the stories of the appearances to more than one person. Further, your hypothetical is completely different from the gospel accounts; both Luke and John tell appearances to all the disciples at once on the day of the Resurrection itself. You can't have it both ways, Gary. If the accounts are different than what happened, they're made-up.

    And you might want to re-think equating the experiences of elderly people who had lived nearly their entire lives with their spouse with young fishermen who had been with their teacher for maybe 3 years.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
      Is Gary really a doctor? I don't think a doctor would be wasting their limited free time making hundreds of internet posts. I don't see any evidence that he is a doctor, for he doesn't realize that reversing brain death can be possible with the knowledge and power to do so. We just lack the current tech to do so. Anyone can claim to be anything on the internet.


      "Character assassination is a sure sign of a cult."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mikeenders View Post
        As I have said before - you cannot think worth a lick. You were arguing within the context of what the NT said and indicated it did not make sense within its own context (and that God should have done something else). Arguing that it doesn't make sense within its own context because you don't believe the context is just being silly.



        Poor baby...claims there are only two answers and when shown he was fabricating starts crying because he has been shown to be wrong`



        There are no parables that we do not knowing the meaning of. Try another bared face lie



        Nope Paul States that resurrection is proof to those who believe in OT prophecy. No surprise that you are clueless on what 1 cor 15 states even though you refer to it. The gospel is not that Christ rose from the dead.

        I Corinthians 15
        3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures

        Some man showing up saying he is resurrected is not the Gospel. Messiah ( a prophetic context) raising from the dead is. The resurrection just like the life of Christ must follow a prophetic context or we would not know it was from God . Jesus suddenly appearing to caesar without that context could be anything - including demonic.

        Try again....there is hope you might get better.....I guess
        Another Christian who cannot engage in a civil discussion.

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        • Originally posted by psstein View Post
          The majority of scholars BELIEVE that John Mark wrote Mark. To quote from Vincent Taylor, the burden of proof is on those who would assert the traditional authorship of Matthew and John and deny that of Luke and Mark.

          Also, I actually work in the field, so your criticism is pretty unfounded. Most of us go where the evidence leads. History depends on assumptions, and sometimes those assumptions are wrong.
          Do you have a source for your claim that the majority of scholars believe John Mark wrote the Gospel of Mark?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            When you hyperventilate about the stories maybe being different than what actually occurred and argue that there was no way for people to check on their accuracy, then you are implicitly claiming that Christians made them up.

            And RIGHT HERE, IN THE VERY SAME POST, you are CLAIMING that Christians "made up" the stories of the appearances to more than one person. Further, your hypothetical is completely different from the gospel accounts; both Luke and John tell appearances to all the disciples at once on the day of the Resurrection itself. You can't have it both ways, Gary. If the accounts are different than what happened, they're made-up.

            And you might want to re-think equating the experiences of elderly people who had lived nearly their entire lives with their spouse with young fishermen who had been with their teacher for maybe 3 years.
            People involved in the game "Telephone" do not usually intentionally change the original story. The original story changes because people remember hearing what was passed on to them differently from what was actually told to them.

            I don't think Christians intentionally embellished the story (except for the possibility of the author of Matthew). I think what happened was what happens in any oral story that is passed around from person to person.
            Last edited by Gary; 09-12-2015, 06:54 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gary View Post
              "Character assassination is a sure sign of a cult."
              I don't have any proof that you are a doctor. What's your specialty? How many years past your residency are you? How old are you? It is a fact that anyone can pretend to be anything on the internet.
              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                Do you have a source for your claim that the majority of scholars believe John Mark wrote the Gospel of Mark?
                Mike Licona, plus a general impression from reading scholarly sources.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                  People involved in the game "Telephone" do not usually intentionally change the original story. The original story changes because people remember hearing what was passed on to them differently from what was actually told to them.

                  I don't think Christians intentionally embellished the story (except for the possibility of the author of Matthew). I think what happened was what happens in any oral story that is passed around from person to person.
                  You would be correct in non-oral cultures. Oral cultures, like the ANE, were rather different. Oral cultures tend to have pretty good control of tradition.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                    I don't have any proof that you are a doctor. What's your specialty? How many years past your residency are you? How old are you? It is a fact that anyone can pretend to be anything on the internet.
                    Wormy Christian: I am under no obligation to divulge any personal information to you, in addition, whether you think I am a real physician or a complete fraud is irrelevant to me.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by psstein View Post
                      You would be correct in non-oral cultures. Oral cultures, like the ANE, were rather different. Oral cultures tend to have pretty good control of tradition.
                      Source?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                        Another Christian who cannot engage in a civil discussion.
                        You got to love the alternate universe Gary lives in - he as much as states all Christians here are uninformed, brain washed and given to self deception and then expects to be handled with kid's gloves when he gets his head handed to him

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                          Wormy Christian: I am under no obligation to divulge any personal information to you, in addition, whether you think I am a real physician or a complete fraud is irrelevant to me.
                          Do you at least know what a urologist does? Or a rheumatologist does? Neurologist is pretty easy. I'm sure most know what a cardiologist is also. But, maybe you're just a general practitioner and not an awesome specialist.
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                          Comment


                          • Here is another thing about the "Five Hundred Witnesses" as evidence for the Resurrection:

                            The Creed in I Corinthians 15 mentions appearances to Peter, James, the apostles, the five hundred, and to Paul. However, what details about any of these appearances do we find in this Creed? Is the body described? The locations of the appearances? The time of the appearances? The circumstances of the appearances?

                            No. Nothing.

                            So it is very possible that all the appearances mentioned in First Corinthians 15 were exactly the same as the appearance to Paul: a bright light.

                            Bright light appears to group of people.jpg

                            Since the original Gospel of Mark says nothing about any appearances, and since Paul says nothing else about these appearances anywhere else in his epistles, the first post-death appearance stories didn't appear, as far as we know, until sometime after circa 65-70 AD. Therefore the appearance stories in Matthew, Luke, and John may be entirely later embellishments.

                            I know that you Christians don't believe this is plausible, but you can't say it is impossible, and therefore the "five hundred witnesses" evidence is not strong at all.
                            Last edited by Gary; 09-12-2015, 08:18 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mikeenders View Post
                              You got to love the alternate universe Gary lives in - he as much as states all Christians here are uninformed, brain washed and given to self deception and then expects to be handled with kid's gloves when he gets his head handed to him
                              Also remember that if you don't respond when he thinks you should, you are just obviously terrified of him.

                              Give time and he'll have Loftus ego.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                                People involved in the game "Telephone" do not usually intentionally change the original story. The original story changes because people remember hearing what was passed on to them differently from what was actually told to them.
                                The game telephone doesn't logically apply. In that game the story is passed one to one sequentially in the same physical locale not one to many to many to many hundreds of miles around the then known world. If I tell 4 people a secret and tell them to tell a hundred each and then I go to London, China, Cuba and argentina and they all have the same secret you can be pretty clear that it was no mistake and the secret was in fact accurately communicated even if with minor differences.

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