Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[37818]

I agree with you. But the Gospel of John says that Jesus died on the 14th of Nisan.

No, that is an interetation imposed on the words, "And it was the preparation of the passover, . . . ." Every day of that passover (Luke 22:1) week had a preparation (Numbers 28:24).

[Apologiaphoenix]

Gary bringing up the Mike Licona incident.

He really is clueless isn't he?

Let's all laugh at the irony.

[Gary]

In short - there are a number of conflicting arguments - there are at least five - which force the examination of the record itself to resolve the issues raised. Or do you consider it more appropriate to just pick one that feels good and go with that?

Mark 14:12

₁₂Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?”

Mark 15:42-43

₄₂ Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, ₄₃ Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.

According to Mark 14:12 -

What day was it? - the first day of unleavened bread.
What happens on that day? the passover lamb is killed

According to external information:

Is the passover lamb eaten on the day that it is killed?

In the Hebrew system of counting days, no. It isn't eaten until the next day (Passover)

Can a day in the Hebrew system have two "evenings"?

Yes - the first will occur at start of day, between 6pm and nightfall (between notional sunset and nightfall i.e. evening = twilight/gloaming) the second will be at close of day, between 3pm and 6pm.

Mark 14:16

So His disciples went out, and came into the city, and found it just as He had said to them; and they prepared the Passover.

According to Mark 14:14-16

Did Jesus send the two disciples into the town the day before he arrived with the twelve?

Sticking a knife in inerrancy (and I did that more than 25 years ago) is one thing - embracing every half baked claim of error is another.

Take it up with the majority of scholars who say you are wrong.

[Gary]

You didn't fully understand what I said. Look again.



I think Nick still believes that the gospels can still be traced by to the eyewitnesses. Probably as a form of oral transmission being passed down before being written down.

So if Jane sees a car accident, and tells Bill about it, and Bill tells Joe about it, and Joe tells Bob about it, and Bob tells Diane about it, and Diane tells Frank about it, and this process continues for 40-60 years, until someone tells John about it, and John writes a book about it...are you really claiming that John's book contains eyewitness testimony???

[Gary]

Nick,

Do you believe that a child can choose to not sin for his entire life?

[tabibito]

Take it up with the majority of scholars who say you are wrong.

The majority of scholars can't even agree on what the right interpretation is.

[Gary]

Stein,

I would still like to hear why you believe that John Mark wrote the Gospel of Mark.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Nick,

Do you believe that a child can choose to not sin for his entire life?

No. It's inevitable.

[Gary]

No. It's inevitable.

So you believe in original sin? All humans are doomed to eternal damnation for our ancestors decision to disobey God and eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil---unless---they repent and believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior?

[Apologiaphoenix]

Non sequitur

[Darth Ovious]

So if Jane sees a car accident, and tells Bill about it, and Bill tells Joe about it, and Joe tells Bob about it, and Bob tells Diane about it, and Diane tells Frank about it, and this process continues for 40-60 years, until someone tells John about it, and John writes a book about it...are you really claiming that John's book contains eyewitness testimony???

Except that's not how it worked. You need to understand more about oral transmission in antiquity to know what the process is. It wasn't just naively passing on information it was taught and memorized repeatedly until those who were taught it remembered it word for word. It was common place for Jewish Rabbi to remember the whole Torah and in fact you were not allowed to preach it until you remembered it off by heart. In those days memory was used more than writing things down on paper because paper was expensive and in fact they didn't write anything on paper unless it was worth remembering to begin with.

[tabibito]

Ezekiel 18:2-5,9

₂ What do you mean when you use
this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

₃ “As I live,” says the Lord GOD,
“you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
₄ “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
₅ But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
~~
₉ If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord GOD.

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of room for "Original Sin."

[Gary]

Non sequitur

"a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement."

Ok. So let's back up. Why is it that it is inevitable that every child will choose to sin? Why is it that no human has, is, or will ever, be sinless?

[Apologiaphoenix]

"a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement."

Ok. So let's back up. Why is it that it is inevitable that every child will choose to sin? Why is it that no human has, is, or will ever, be sinless?

Not the non sequitur part.

You really need to learn basic logic.

[Gary]

Except that's not how it worked. You need to understand more about oral transmission in antiquity to know what the process is. It wasn't just naively passing on information it was taught and memorized repeatedly until those who were taught it remembered it word for word. It was common place for Jewish Rabbi to remember the whole Torah and in fact you were not allowed to preach it until you remembered it off by heart. In those days memory was used more than writing things down on paper because paper was expensive and in fact they didn't write anything on paper unless it was worth remembering to begin with.

So you are 100% sure that once the eyewitnesses to the Resurrection began preaching (telling what they had seen) to others, that this story was transmitted perfectly for 30-60 years until the stories were written down? But let's back up a step. It wasn't as if there was only one story, told by one person, that was then memorized by everyone and passed down. If the New Testament is correct, there were over five hundred eyewitnesses, therefore there would be over five hundred different original stories. Are you saying that we should have 100% faith that each of these 500+ people got all the facts straight?

Let's say that all 500+ eyewitnesses agreed that Jesus had been crucified and that three days later he appeared, in some sense, to his followers. And, 490 of these original eyewitnesses' stories agreed on all the major "facts", but 10 of them "saw" things very differently, and it was the story of these 10 people, which included much more exciting details (dead people roaming the streets of Jerusalem, earthquakes, angels) that gets wider circulation. And it is from this version of the story that the authors of the four Gospels, living in foreign lands, writing decades later, write their stories.

So the original story of the original ten eyewitnesses is preserved intact, but it bears little resemblance to the original story of the majority of eyewitnesses.

I'm sure you do not believe that this happened, or that it is even plausible, but you cannot say that it did not. You cannot say that it is impossible. And I and other skeptics would say that this scenario is much more probable, as is the scenario that ALL the stories became embellished over time after passing from person to person over many years, than the scenario that 500+ superstitious, grieving, first century Galilean peasants really saw a reanimated dead body 2,000 years ago in primitive Palestine.