Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    Already have Gary. You don't interact with scholarship. You dodge everything that tthey say and when I put up links to leading scholars I've interviewed, you don't bother listening and insist we listen to your guys.
    That is not the issue Nick. You have accused me of being uninformed, and due to being uninformed, having positions contrary to the overwhelming majority of scholars. I am asking you to back up this accusation by giving me ONE position that I have stated that contradicts the position of the overwhelming majority of scholars. You can't and you damn well know it. That means that you lied. That means that you bore false witness against me.

    Just because I have a position that you disagree with doesn't make my position out of the mainstream of scholarship. I can point to scholars who hold a differing view than you on every issue we have discussed. What you really want is for me to read ALL scholars who agree with your position, and only then will you feel that I am qualified to challenge your position.

    This is nonsense. Imagine if I you were debating a Mormon and told him that he has no good evidence that an angel appeared to Joseph Smith and gave him Golden Tablets. The Mormon responds that you are uninformed because you have not read all the books by Mormon scholars on the subject. You don't need to read dozens of books by Mormon scholars to NOT believe in Joseph Smith's supernatural claim, and, you don't need to read dozens of books by Christian scholars to NOT believe in a first century reanimation.

    Comment


    • Let's see what a neutral source says about slavery in the Roman Empire:

      Slavery in ancient Rome differed from its modern forms in that it was not based on race.

      But like modern slavery, it was an abusive and degrading institution. Cruelty was commonplace.

      A common practice

      Slavery had a long history in the ancient world and was practiced in Ancient Egypt and Greece, as well as Rome. Most slaves during the Roman Empire were foreigners and, unlike in modern times, Roman slavery was not based on race.

      Slaves in Rome might include prisoners of war, sailors captured and sold by pirates, or slaves bought outside Roman territory. In hard times, it was not uncommon for desperate Roman citizens to raise money by selling their children into slavery.

      Life as a slave

      All slaves and their families were the property of their owners, who could sell or rent them out at any time. Their lives were harsh. Slaves were often whipped, branded or cruelly mistreated. Their owners could also kill them for any reason, and would face no punishment.

      Although Romans accepted slavery as the norm, some people – like the poet and philosopher, Seneca – argued that slaves should at least be treated fairly.

      Essential labor


      Slaves worked everywhere – in private households, in mines and factories, and on farms. They also worked for city governments on engineering projects such as roads, aqueducts and buildings. As a result, they merged easily into the population.

      In fact, slaves looked so similar to Roman citizens that the Senate once considered a plan to make them wear special clothing so that they could be identified at a glance. The idea was rejected because the Senate feared that, if slaves saw how many of them were working in Rome, they might be tempted to join forces and rebel.

      Manumission

      Another difference between Roman slavery and its more modern variety was manumission – the ability of slaves to be freed. Roman owners freed their slaves in considerable numbers: some freed them outright, while others allowed them to buy their own freedom. The prospect of possible freedom through manumission encouraged most slaves to be obedient and hard working.

      Formal manumission was performed by a magistrate and gave freed men full Roman citizenship. The one exception was that they were not allowed to hold office. However, the law gave any children born to freedmen, after formal manumission, full rights of citizenship, including the right to hold office.

      Informal manumission gave fewer rights. Slaves freed informally did not become citizens and any property or wealth they accumulated reverted to their former owners when they died.

      Free at last?

      Once freed, former slaves could work in the same jobs as plebeians – as craftsmen, midwives or traders. Some even became wealthy. However, Rome’s rigid society attached importance to social status and even successful freedmen usually found the stigma of slavery hard to overcome – the degradation lasted well beyond the slavery itself.

      Source: http://www.pbs.org/empires/romans/em...s_freemen.html

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gary View Post
        That is not the issue Nick. You have accused me of being uninformed, and due to being uninformed, having positions contrary to the overwhelming majority of scholars. I am asking you to back up this accusation by giving me ONE position that I have stated that contradicts the position of the overwhelming majority of scholars. You can't and you damn well know it. That means that you lied. That means that you bore false witness against me.

        Just because I have a position that you disagree with doesn't make my position out of the mainstream of scholarship. I can point to scholars who hold a differing view than you on every issue we have discussed. What you really want is for me to read ALL scholars who agree with your position, and only then will you feel that I am qualified to challenge your position.

        This is nonsense. Imagine if I you were debating a Mormon and told him that he has no good evidence that an angel appeared to Joseph Smith and gave him Golden Tablets. The Mormon responds that you are uninformed because you have not read all the books by Mormon scholars on the subject. You don't need to read dozens of books by Mormon scholars to NOT believe in Joseph Smith's supernatural claim, and, you don't need to read dozens of books by Christian scholars to NOT believe in a first century reanimation.
        No. I said you're uninformed because you don't argue with scholarship. You argue from your own opinion and treat that as fact. You do not read what disagrees with you. Your inability to even interact with a podcast makes the case.

        As for Mormonism, I guarantee you if I was going to go argue with Mormons regularly, I would be reading Mormon scholarship on the issue. I'd want to read the best I could. That's why I've in fact read a number of works by Mormons and their Scriptures.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Yup - that he did.

          But of course, the argument presented in the video will undoubtedly be careful to ignore Deuteronomy 23:15-16
          “You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you. 16 “He may dwell with you in your midst, in the place which he chooses within one of your gates, where it seems best to him; you shall not oppress him.

          So - a slave who was mistreated had recourse to safe refuge.
          Slaves in the South could not be brutally beaten so that they were dismembered or mamed, or killed. The owner would face stiff penalties for committing these acts.

          Are you saying that the Bible did not allow the taking of slaves from other nations and keeping them and their offspring as property for life??

          Comment


          • And Roman slavery is related to slavery in Israel? What you have there is a worst case scenario.
            In particular - the slave in Israel was to be given refuge if he found being in his master's household too burdensome.
            You look at the whole issue of slave ownership by Christians in a vacuum. You don't even begin to understand that the requirement of treating other people equitably is a foundational precept of Christianity. And the piece you just posted shows what kind of future a manumitted slave might expect - in Rome.
            Rome - where the law of Pater Familias was in effect, and a slave's life expectancy was something less than 18 years.
            What makes you think that Christians of the first century conformed to Roman or Hellenistic customs, or for that matter, Hebrew? Nothing more than your own blind prejudice.

            Of course the law permitted that a foreign slave could be kept for life (unless he escaped and sought refuge) - you think I needed some lame video to make the fact known?
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
              No. I said you're uninformed because you don't argue with scholarship. You argue from your own opinion and treat that as fact. You do not read what disagrees with you. Your inability to even interact with a podcast makes the case.

              As for Mormonism, I guarantee you if I was going to go argue with Mormons regularly, I would be reading Mormon scholarship on the issue. I'd want to read the best I could. That's why I've in fact read a number of works by Mormons and their Scriptures.
              There is no scholarship for reanimations, Nick. How many times must I point this out to you???

              I do not disagree with the overwhelming majority of New Testament scholars regarding ANY issue related to the early Christian BELIEF in a reanimation. However, I strongly disagree with you that being a scholar regarding the supernatural beliefs of ancient peoples somehow makes you an expert on the supernatural event alleged. NONE of your scholars have any expertise in reanimations of dead bodies. NONE. I as a physician have more expertise on this question than all of your NT scholars combined.

              THAT is why I do not need to quote scholarship regarding the claim of a first century reanimation, because there is no scholarship for the event itself. NO ONE claims to have witnessed the reanimation itself!

              I agree with you that there is much scholarship regarding early Christians believing that they interacted with a reanimated body, but this claim is not the same as claiming to have witnessed the reanimation itself. Tens of thousands of people have claimed to have interacted with the dead from the beginning of time. Scholarship for APPEARANCES and scholarship for reanimations are NOT the same.

              This is what you have repeatedly failed to grasp.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                And Roman slavery is related to slavery in Israel? What you have there is a worst case scenario.
                In particular - the slave in Israel was to be given refuge if he found being in his master's household too burdensome.
                You look at the whole issue of slave ownership by Christians in a vacuum. You don't even begin to understand that the requirement of treating other people equitably is a foundational precept of Christianity. And the piece you just posted shows what kind of future a manumitted slave might expect - in Rome.
                Rome - where the law of Pater Familias was in effect, and a slave's life expectancy was something less than 18 years.
                What makes you think that Christians of the first century conformed to Roman or Hellenistic customs, or for that matter, Hebrew? Nothing more than your own blind prejudice.

                Of course the law permitted that a foreign slave could be kept for life (unless he escaped and sought refuge) - you think I needed some lame video to make the fact known?
                You are hopelessly brainwashed on this issue, Tabby.

                Comment


                • Leviticus 25:45-46 for anyone who wants to check whether foreign slaves were owned for life.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • I agree with you that there is much scholarship regarding early Christians believing that they interacted with a reanimated body, but this claim is not the same as claiming to have witnessed the reanimation itself. Tens of thousands of people have claimed to have interacted with the dead from the beginning of time. Scholarship for APPEARANCES and scholarship for reanimations are NOT the same.

                    This is what you have repeatedly failed to grasp.
                    This child, Gary, is playing in the market place.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Leviticus 25:45-46 for anyone who wants to check whether foreign slaves were owned for life.
                      ” Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." --- by order of the Christian god.

                      "If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. 5 But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life." ---by order of the Christian god


                      Analysis: The bible permits slavery with direct commandments from God. The rules are somewhat complicated, with differences between Hebrews vs. gentiles and men vs. women. The verses above are not all the rules on slavery, but they are direct quotes from God if you believe the bible to be literal.For Hebrews, slavery was a way to pay off a debt. After 6 years of work, a Hebrew slave would be set free in the year of Jubilee – as long as the slave is male. A father has the right to sell his daughter into slavery. Exodus 21:7-11 describe rules for selling a daughter as slave, but the verses seem to interchange female slavery and marriage.

                      Exodus 21:20-21 permit slave owners to beat their slaves so that they are unconscious for 2-3 days!

                      Leviticus 25:44-45 describes how gentile slaves are to be treated, which is very different from Hebrew slaves. Gentile slaves are not to be set free in the year of Jubillee but are passed from father to son as an inheritance.

                      Another thing to point out is the Exodus 21 is one chapter after the 10 commandments in Exodus 20. Most American Christians who promote displaying the 10 commandments with taxpayer money have no idea where the 10 commandments are located, much less any idea that slavery is endorsed only a few sentences after these commandments. If we have the right to display Exodus 20 with tax money, then don’t we have the right to display Exodus 21 with tax money?

                      Source: https://rarebible.wordpress.com/2009...and-leviticus/

                      Tabby: Will you now admit that you were wrong about foreign slaves?
                      Last edited by Gary; 09-07-2015, 02:48 PM.

                      Comment


                      • I know that many of you find it very insulting when I say that you are brainwashed and members of a cult. However, I know it is true because I was once a member of your belief system. I once looked down my nose at atheists and other non-believers as ignorant God-haters, pure and simple. "These people don't see the truth about God and the Bible for the simple reason that they don't want to. They are in a state of rebellion against God and therefore their rage blinds them to the truth."

                        It isn't true, dear Christians. This is what every cult tells you. Nick and others talk so much about "scholarship" but what about the massive scholarship that denies the reality of supernatural claims? What about the massive amount of scholarship that finds ZERO evidence for one to believe in supernatural phenomenon? The majority of scientists on planet earth do not believe in the powers of witchcraft and sorcery. But your belief system is based on sorcery. You may consider it a good form of sorcery, but it is still sorcery. Any male human being with magical powers is a sorcerer. Scientists don't believe in sorcery. It is imaginary. There is zero evidence for it. Science doesn't bother trying to disprove things for which there is no evidence to suggest it exists.

                        Please, please, please wake up from the spell that your cult has lulled you into. Please read the following . I know that while reading you will say to yourself, "I am not a fundamentalist Christian"---but by the definition of secular society, all of the Christians commenting on this thread are fundamentalists. Non-fundamentalist Christians do not believe that non-Christians are going to be punished for not being Christians. If you believe they will be punished, in any way, shape, or form, including being "shamed", you are a fundamentalist, like it or not.

                        Edited by a Moderator

                        Moderated By: Littlejoe

                        Gary, even in a link, that word (BS) is not allowed. You should know that by now. Since that word is not allowed, please do not link to or use that link as your source.

                        ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                        Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                        Last edited by Littlejoe; 09-09-2015, 10:58 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Could AP please explain why Gary thinketh that we be brainwashed? Silly fundy atheist don't realize that one can be intellectually convinced of the truth of Christianity. And we are supposed to ask questions, not be like the creepy cult that prohibits questions.
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                          Comment


                          • Probably my last post for today; I have real-world responsibilities to deal with.

                            Calling Loftus and Sam Harris paragons of "reason" is almost comical. Harris is incompetent, to put it nicely, and Loftus is a fundamentalist who changed sides. He doesn't understand how to read the Bible in any way outside of a strictly literal sense. Ehrman is a good scholar, but a lousy popularizer. He's a manuscript specialist who trained under the legendary Bruce Metzger (probably the greatest American manuscript scholar of the 20th century, if not ever). He's not a life of Jesus researcher (like Crossan, Johnson, etc.), and his popular work is sensationalistic at best. He knows we know what the NT says. He gives the illusion we don't. When he talks about the historical Jesus, he is way outside of his depth, and it shows. Loftus is the best internet atheist, and his arguments aren't particularly good. His OTF is, by itself, problematic.

                            Using a site with the title Gary's reference site has is anything but an unbiased source. Most OT scholars are Jewish, not Christian. Among non-evangelical Christian scholars, almost all hold to either JEPD (the Documentary Hypothesis) or what R. N. Whybray believed, a compilation of sources by a later scribe.

                            I'll put it this way, I am fairly agnostic as to the historicity of much of the OT. I read K.A. Kitchen's On the Reliability of the Old Testament and found it wanting, although it did challenge my views on certain parts. You can't just read stuff that agrees with you if you want to actually know things.
                            Last edited by psstein; 09-07-2015, 04:16 PM. Reason: forbidden word, sorry!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              Leviticus 25:45-46 for anyone who wants to check whether foreign slaves were owned for life.
                              I think I wrote a paper on that section for my Torah class... but remember, we're the deluded ones.

                              Comment


                              • Yeah, no, I'm pretty sure that that particular word is not allowed and you better edit it yourself before you get a warning.


                                ETA: a few seconds too late.

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X