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  • There is one issue in the Bible that is absolute proof that the Bible was not written by a good, just, benevolent God: Slavery. The Bible condones slavery. It never once condemns this evil. Jesus never condemned this evil. This is absolute proof that the Bible is not the Word of a benevolent, just God and proof that Jesus was not this benevolent, just God.

    Slavery, in all its forms is evil. There is NEVER any justification for it. There is no such thing as a "good" form of slavery, such as indentured servitude. The fact that the Bible condones this evil institution is proof that the Bible should NOT be the source of anyone's morality.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gary View Post
      According to the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the Association of American Psychologists you are dead wrong. And since you think you know more than all these scholars and experts combined
      Your lying and obvious lying is of no consequence to me. it just shows how light your ability to reason and debate is (which is no new revelation). I claimed no superior knowledge instead I linked to a article written by a PHD which clearly indicates the issue is nowhere near as resolved as you claimed (hardly surprising since almost none of what you claim as an absolute has a better fate when examined)

      you are an idiot. I do not debate idiots.
      Ahh but apparently we do which is why we entertain you even as we find you entertaining.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gary View Post
        Christians continue to "update" their interpretation of this ancient text. Isn't it odd that it is the interpretation of the Bible that must change to keep up with Science and not the other way around.
        Yep - I'm waiting for the day when people stop claiming the Bible says that everything in it is inspired by God. Were the fact acknowledged that the Bible says no such thing, a lot of nonsense would be done away with.

        So after two thousand years, we are now told that "day" does not literally mean "day".
        Interpretations may vary depending on the knowledge and understanding of the people who are informed. Interpretations may even vary depending on the capacity to exercise logic.
        As a clear example of this process, it is not necessary to delve further into the Bible than Genesis 1:1
        "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth, and the Earth was without form and void."

        What does the verse say? The Earth had no shape, and no content.
        Those who understand that things can be created without necessarily being brought immediately into existence have no problem with that statement. Those who don't understand the fact will seek to impose a changed definition on "without form and void". Yet things are created daily without having an immediate actual existence - the architect designs a house - the house has been created ... to the extent that an artist might look at the blue prints and see the house so clearly that he can paint a picture of it.

        As for the term "day" having a range of definitions - that is as much a fact in Hebrew as it is in English ... and that fact has always been known. In the phrase, "in my father's day" for example, "day" does not mean a term of twenty four hours, nor does "day" in the phrase, "the shortest day of the year".
        Last edited by tabibito; 09-06-2015, 10:51 PM.
        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Gary View Post
          There is one issue in the Bible that is absolute proof that the Bible was not written by a good, just, benevolent God: Slavery. The Bible condones slavery. It never once condemns this evil. Jesus never condemned this evil. This is absolute proof that the Bible is not the Word of a benevolent, just God and proof that Jesus was not this benevolent, just God.

          and off to the races he goes on his fifth attempt at switching subjects to see if he can get one to stick. The bible does better than condemning slavery. its eats away at its basis, devastate it at its core and inspired men to abolish it

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wilberforce


          Jesus did not comment on many issues - no indictment against rape, pedophelia, no messages about democracy, communism, porn, never covered child birth issues, dating shucks Jesus just barely got into taxation and the reign of the roman empire but indicated enough that we know he held far more opinions about it that he didn't give a speech on. Why? because Jesus knew that all the governments and organizations of the world are corrupt and none can address all issues of the heart as his kingdom can and will.

          You are merely doing your circular dance again - As a secularist you believe issues are addressed by legislation, speeches and votes while in reality some issues are never changed but by first addressing the larger issue. Your way wasn't what inspired the end of slavery in the civilized world. No atheist or socialist headed the abolition of slavery as Wilberforce did. It was a christian man inspired by scripture because he believed his Saviour's New testament which CLEARLY indicated that all men were equal in Christ.

          There is no passage in the Old Testament that established the beginning of slavery. It was an institution and practice much like divorce that was initiated by men as a part of human existence away from God. Despite your ramblings and lack of insight it also was an institution that could not at the time be abolished because it was part of many people's basis for existence. Go ahead and go back in time and command the end of slavery at a time when you could not go out and get a "job" and you would end up with men and women and children starving and being homeless. its easy to play arm chair God when you don't have to consider the ramifications of the historical economic system

          so what does the old testament teach and provide? most people such as yourself are wholly ignorant on the subject besides the verses you have been fed by skeptic sites. In your ignorance you miss passages such as the following

          Deuteronomy 23:15-16 (NASB): 15You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. 16He shall live with you in your midst, in the place which he shall choose in one of your towns where it pleases him; you shall not mistreat him.

          slavery in ancient days and in more modern times have the same name but drastically different circumstances. slaves were not chained at night. So they could leave the country and if they fled to Israel they were protected. As such it was much more an individual choice for survival than something one could not free themselves from. As an African American who has studied this issue your equivalence of all slavery as the same is laughable.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mikeenders View Post
            and off to the races he goes on his fifth attempt at switching subjects to see if he can get one to stick. The bible does better than condemning slavery. its eats away at its basis, devastate it at its core and inspired men to abolish it

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wilberforce


            Jesus did not comment on many issues - no indictment against rape, pedophelia, no messages about democracy, communism, porn, never covered child birth issues, dating shucks Jesus just barely got into taxation and the reign of the roman empire but indicated enough that we know he held far more opinions about it that he didn't give a speech on. Why? because Jesus knew that all the governments and organizations of the world are corrupt and none can address all issues of the heart as his kingdom can and will.

            You are merely doing your circular dance again - As a secularist you believe issues are addressed by legislation, speeches and votes while in reality some issues are never changed but by first addressing the larger issue. Your way wasn't what inspired the end of slavery in the civilized world. No atheist or socialist headed the abolition of slavery as Wilberforce did. It was a christian man inspired by scripture because he believed his Saviour's New testament which CLEARLY indicated that all men were equal in Christ.

            There is no passage in the Old Testament that established the beginning of slavery. It was an institution and practice much like divorce that was initiated by men as a part of human existence away from God. Despite your ramblings and lack of insight it also was an institution that could not at the time be abolished because it was part of many people's basis for existence. Go ahead and go back in time and command the end of slavery at a time when you could not go out and get a "job" and you would end up with men and women and children starving and being homeless. its easy to play arm chair God when you don't have to consider the ramifications of the historical economic system

            so what does the old testament teach and provide? most people such as yourself are wholly ignorant on the subject besides the verses you have been fed by skeptic sites. In your ignorance you miss passages such as the following

            Deuteronomy 23:15-16 (NASB): 15You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. 16He shall live with you in your midst, in the place which he shall choose in one of your towns where it pleases him; you shall not mistreat him.

            slavery in ancient days and in more modern times have the same name but drastically different circumstances. slaves were not chained at night. So they could leave the country and if they fled to Israel they were protected. As such it was much more an individual choice for survival than something one could not free themselves from. As an African American who has studied this issue your equivalence of all slavery as the same is laughable.
            You obviously did not watch the video did, you? If you had you would see how every Christian justification for the Bible condoning slavery, both in the OT and in the NT, are blown out of the water. I am nauseated every time I hear a Christian excuse the slavery that existed in the time of Jesus and Paul saying that there was a huge difference between "that kind" of slavery and the slavery of Africans in the ante-bellum South. Nonsense. Have you ever read I Peter chapter 2?? Read this passage and tell me that slaves were not treated just as barbarically in the NT times:

            "Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. 19 For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. 20 If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God’s approval."

            Just how do you think that the "harsh" slave masters in Paul's time were beating their slaves? With fly swatters?? They were beating their slaves exactly how slaves were beaten on the plantations of the Deep South: with a whip or club.

            Open your eyes!

            The Bible was written by immoral people condoning immoral behavior. The authors of the Bible spent every waking moment worked up over what human beings were doing with their penises and vaginas, but didn't bat an eye regarding infanticide, genocide, and slavery. It is a pathetically immoral book that should NOT be read to young children.
            Last edited by Gary; 09-07-2015, 12:27 AM.

            Comment


            • Gary, until you can read the original Hebrew, or until you read a scholarly commentary, of which there are literally thousands, shut up. You haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about.

              This conversation is like dealing with a spoiled child. He just sticks his fingers in his ears and yells louder.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by psstein View Post
                Gary, until you can read the original Hebrew, or until you read a scholarly commentary, of which there are literally thousands, shut up. You haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about.

                This conversation is like dealing with a spoiled child. He just sticks his fingers in his ears and yells louder.
                And for you to suggest that any form of slavery can be justified by reading the original languages or reading some biased Christian scholar's spin on this evil institution shows just how brain-washed and truly sick you really are, Stein. I have no intention of shutting up. I intend to keep "preaching" the evils of the Christian holy book until the good moderators of this site either ban me or close this thread.

                Comment


                • "Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. 19 For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. 20 If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God’s approval."
                  1/ Which part of Turkey is in Israel? (The letter was addressed to the people of that region)
                  2/ Which part of punishment for doing wrong is inconsistent with justice?
                  3/ Which part of a slave's attitude toward his master includes a reference to the attitude required of a master toward his slave?

                  Ephesians 6:9
                  And you, masters, do the same things to them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master also is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.
                  Colossians 4:1
                  Masters, give your bondservants what is just and fair, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.

                  Quote mining gets him nowhere - it only demonstrates yet again his jaundiced viewpoint.
                  1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                    You obviously did not watch the video did, you? If you had you would see how every Christian justification for the Bible condoning slavery, both in the OT and in the NT, are blown out of the water.
                    The chances a youtube video covers issues that I have not researched on an issue that directly affected my family are close to nil. Of course no one is running at your beck and call to watch every video you put up. Debate by youtube videos is so utterly childish as to be laughable. If you can't make good points yourself why would anyone trust your judgment that somewhere in a youtube video a good point is made? I've passed on all your videos as I think most people have. Adults link to papers and books. kids link to youtube.


                    I am nauseated every time I hear a Christian excuse the slavery that existed in the time of Jesus and Paul saying that there was a huge difference between "that kind" of slavery and the slavery of Africans in the ante-bellum South. Nonsense.
                    From some pictures I have seen you use to represent yourself I find it utter nonsense for a white guy to tell an African american about race and slavery. I am not nauseated out of disgust just out of too much laughing after a meal :)


                    Have you ever read I Peter chapter 2?? Read this passage and tell me that slaves were not treated poorly in the NT times:

                    "Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. 19 For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. 20 If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God’s approval."
                    Yawn....the selective out of context verse to prove my point gambit - what else is new among online skeptics? Still that has to be one of the most dishonest quote mines i have ever seen online of scripture. As is perfectly obvious and apparent from the passage it is all about enduring suffering even when that suffering is WRONG as christ being crucified

                    18Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable. 19For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly. 20For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.
                    21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; 23and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 25For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

                    So what is the passage stating? that being treated harshly is unreasonable in the eyes of God and is as unrighteous as Christ being crucified. Take a bow Gary. You've just shown that an unreasonable slave owner was seen by God as just as bad as the crucifiers of christ. Yeah for Gary

                    Further we see from the context ( a class in hermeneutics might help you) this kind of suffering is what ALL christians slave or free have as an example in Christ (who was never a slave). So rather than approving of the sin it is a passage stating we will be rewarded for enduring unrighteous suffering

                    Finally if you actually were not dedicated to such ignorance of the new testament you would have seen that the passage calls for the same pattern for free, slaves husand and wife and concludes the subject in chapter 3 (no chapter or verse divisions in GreeK manuscripts) as follows

                    (3:8) To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; 9not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.
                    10For,
                    “THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS,
                    MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.

                    11“HE MUST TURN AWAY FROM EVIL AND DO GOOD;
                    HE MUST SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT.

                    12“FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS,
                    AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER,
                    BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL.”

                    13Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good? 14But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, 15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
                    We Christians are ALL called to take suffering knowing that God will vindicate us against such unrighteousness. It has nothing to do with our status of being free or slaves.


                    try again....see why no one is really that inspired to watch your poor point videos?

                    Are you capable of making ANY good points or is spraying emotions all you have?

                    Please understand at page 200+ its a rhetorical question. We all already know the answer
                    Last edited by Mikeenders; 09-07-2015, 01:07 AM.

                    Comment


                    • i decided to watch the first few minutes of your last video to test the theory of whether someone who can't make a good point can pick a good video and had to stop at the four minute mark because the thinking behind its first analogy was so poor and ill conceived. There is no comparison between slavery and prostitution if the video maker could think rationally

                      From a biblical perspective all actions of sex outside of marriage are wrong. Feeding the sheep, cleaning the house reaping the harvest are not actions of sin and yet they are actions a slave would do.

                      Prostitution by necessity involves the action of sex outside of marriage of both parties, The act itself is sinful while the acts a slave might do are in no shape or way actions requiring sin on the slaves part. if it starts out with such silly analogies its pretty much par for the course of youtube atheist videos. If you coudl red worth a lick youwould see there are examples of VOLUNTARY slaves in the bible so the word slave can have an entirely different meaning. A person who has every right to be free could claim life long allegiance to his master out of love (deut 15:16) and be a "slave" with nothing immoral about it.

                      also the premise made that OT passages automatically indicate what was considered moral is utterly false and betrays a kindergarten understanding of the torah and the OT. The law was primarily and obviously for the nations judiciary. So much so that there are many laws that apply only to Jews and some Jews today consider it "chutzpa" for a gentile to think he is being spoken to in the Torah. There are of course many statements that reflect morality but many that do not in both the torah and in the rest of the OT. Three obvious examples to anyone that has studied the Bible -

                      1) Malachi makes it perfectly clear that God hates divorce yet the law allows for it under judicial procedures. Here morality is different from the judicial law

                      2) God clearly objected to the Jew having a man as king but the OT has several passages with God blessing the king and laying down laws establishing his throne. (here whats truly moral would be to see god alone as king but expediency and free choice has God creating guidelines for what was not a moral choice to begin with.)

                      3) the whole sacrificial system allows immoral actions to be covered merely judicially by the death of animals whereby it takes the a relationship with Christ and his sacrifice to be truly moral in the eyes of God. lest someone claim that the NT makes this deficiency of the sacrificial system up there are several writings of David in the psalms that suggest the sacrificial system is insufficient for true morality with God. a key one (of many) Hebrews alludes to

                      Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened; Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.
                      Last edited by Mikeenders; 09-07-2015, 02:36 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mikeenders View Post
                        i decided to watch the first few minutes of your last video to test the theory of whether someone who can't make a good point can pick a good video and had to stop at the four minute mark because the thinking behind its first analogy was so poor and ill conceived. There is no comparison between slavery and prostitution if the video maker could think rationally

                        From a biblical perspective all actions of sex outside of marriage are wrong. Feeding the sheep, cleaning the house reaping the harvest are not actions of sin and yet they are actions a slave would do.

                        Prostitution by necessity involves the action of sex outside of marriage of both parties, The act itself is sinful while the acts a slave might do are in no shape or way actions requiring sin on the slaves part. if it starts out with such silly analogies its pretty much par for the course of youtube atheist videos. If you coudl red worth a lick youwould see there are examples of VOLUNTARY slaves in the bible so the word slave can have an entirely different meaning. A person who has every right to be free could claim life long allegiance to his master out of love (deut 15:16) and be a "slave" with nothing immoral about it.

                        also the premise made that OT passages automatically indicate what was considered moral is utterly false and betrays a kindergarten understanding of the torah and the OT. The law was primarily and obviously for the nations judiciary. So much so that there are many laws that apply only to Jews and some Jews today consider it "chutzpa" for a gentile to think he is being spoken to in the Torah. There are of course many statements that reflect morality but many that do not in both the torah and in the rest of the OT. Three obvious examples to anyone that has studied the Bible -

                        1) Malachi makes it perfectly clear that God hates divorce yet the law allows for it under judicial procedures. Here morality is different from the judicial law

                        2) God clearly objected to the Jew having a man as king but the OT has several passages with God blessing the king and laying down laws establishing his throne. (here whats truly moral would be to see god alone as king but expediency and free choice has God creating guidelines for what was not a moral choice to begin with.)

                        3) the whole sacrificial system allows immoral actions to be covered merely judicially by the death of animals whereby it takes the a relationship with Christ and his sacrifice to be truly moral in the eyes of God. lest someone claim that the NT makes this deficiency of the sacrificial system up there are several writings of David in the psalms that suggest the sacrificial system is insufficient for true morality with God. a key one (of many) Hebrews alludes to

                        Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened; Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.
                        You are morally perverse. If a God exists, may he/she/or it have mercy on your evil, sick soul. There is NEVER any justification for infanticide, genocide, or slavery. NEVER! Get that into your indoctrinated, sick head.

                        Isn't there even ONE Christian on this site who is willing to say that Paul and Peter SHOULD HAVE condemned slavery; that they should have told slave masters who were Christians to free their slaves? Don't any of you have ANY moral conscience other than on issues involving genitalia??

                        Last edited by Gary; 09-07-2015, 03:14 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                          You are morally perverse. If a God exists, may he/she/or it have mercy on your evil, sick soul. There is NEVER any justification for infanticide, genocide, or slavery. NEVER! Get that into your indoctrinated, sick head.

                          Isn't there even ONE Christian on this site who is willing to say that Paul and Peter SHOULD HAVE condemned slavery; that they should have told slave masters who were Christians to free their slaves? Don't any of you have ANY moral conscience other than on issues involving genitalia??
                          No-one with any appreciation of history in general or of the church in particular would pay any attention to your outlandish assertions. Do you think there was some sort of free labour market where manumitted slaves could just go and pick up work at the drop of a hat? Poor people sold themselves into slavery so as to be better off.
                          Christian masters of slaves were required to treat those slaves in humane, even gracious fashion, and to treat their Christian slaves as brothers.
                          Christian leaders of the time were adherent to the mandates of Christ, which, in regard to non-Christian society, was simply to extend the invitation to partake of the opportunity for salvation. There was no attempt to control those who rejected Christianity, the task was to maintain order within the church.
                          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                            You are morally perverse. If a God exists, may he/she/or it have mercy on your evil, sick soul. There is NEVER any justification for infanticide, genocide, or slavery. NEVER! Get that into your indoctrinated, sick head.
                            ROFL....this coming from the person who just maintained that morality is whatever the herd says it is. Really Gary we can all see through this fake circus like moral outrage on your part. didn't think we could? BY your own rationality you would justify slavery since it was what the herd said was moral. It took the minority yet reading their Bible to come to the conclusion it was wrong ( from reading their Bible) that led to the abolition of slavery in the civilized world - A bare fact truth that rebuts, destroys, chews up and spits out your claims against christianity.

                            Sorry Gary you lose again. The history of abolition is one of Christians being Christians and reading their Bible being motivated by doing so to end slavery. Its a historical fact you can do nothing to change. Thank God they didn't believe in your whatever the herd says is moral is moral argument or else my ancestors and I would still be slaves and you would own and mistreat slaves just as your ancestors no doubt did. As a matter of fact you even now are in bad moral company. The only people I ever see equate all slavery being the same are present day racists themselves (can't rule you out) who try to equate their ancestor's race based blacks are sub human so we can kidnap them and ship them across the middle passage to serve us kind of slavery with all slavery most of which was not base don race and did not confer with it sub humanity which your ancestors made up to add to their atrocities. Today's closet racists (do you wish to come out?) do this to make themselves feel better about their family's history. After all if all slavery is the same and many nations and races have kept slaves then that takes the extra heat against white slave owners such as your ancestors off. ;)

                            Isn't there even ONE Christian on this site who is willing to say that Paul and Peter SHOULD HAVE condemned slavery
                            sure we are willing but those of us who know our bible don't need to say it because Paul and Peter did condemn slavery when they stated that all were one in Christ and that slaves should be treated as brothers (therefore changing the nature of the relationship and making all slaves in christian households into family members/brothers and sisters). Your dullness to see the point is of little consequence (except in pointing out the dullness). It was this redefinition that ended slavery when Wilberforce successfully argued for its abolition as being unchristian.

                            so not only was the scriptural redefinition more moral it was historical proven to be effective in ending slavery whereas your "herd is morality" would have done no such thing. epic fail.

                            P.S. in regard to Youtube videos - if you think on page 200+ of any forum you have people wandering in and watching weak Sam Harris atheist propaganda videos rather than the discussion (which you always seem to lose in) you are even mor edelusional than you appear in posts to be.

                            since you seem to be too obtuse to figure it out - the mods here allow you to go on because your posts make pretty good exhibits of empty headed atheist fundamentalism. Continue to entertain us. We will restock the popcorn.

                            Comment


                            • Drink!

                              Comment


                              • Can parrotguy come up with anything original that we haven't seen/heard before? Gary must think we all grew up in a Christian bubble removed from any sources that are critical of Christianity.
                                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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