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  • On secularism, there's no ontological foundation for morality. If you believe societies create morality, how do you judge something your society considers moral immoral?

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    • Originally posted by psstein View Post
      On secularism, there's no ontological foundation for morality. If you believe societies create morality, how do you judge something your society considers moral immoral?
      It seems that he assumes a society has the right to decide what is moral, provided that they conform with what he considers moral.
      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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      • This is what your god ordered his "faithful" to do to thousands of helpless Amalekite, Midianite, and Canaanite children. Shame on all of you for making pathetic justifications for these immoral, barbaric acts..

        Dead children from the evil of war.jpg

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        • Originally posted by psstein View Post
          On secularism, there's no ontological foundation for morality. If you believe societies create morality, how do you judge something your society considers moral immoral?
          Every individual in the herd has the ability to form his own definition of what is moral and immoral. He can then try to persuade others in his herd to adopt his view. However, the majority will still set the standard for the entire herd. The individual may not like it, but must accept it or change herds or go out on his own to small uninhabited, unclaimed island.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            It seems that he assumes a society has the right to decide what is moral, provided that they conform with what he considers moral.
            Absolutely not. I am only one individual in the herd. I have the right to have my own moral standard, but if it violates the moral standard of the herd, I will likely find myself in trouble. For instance, it might be my moral standard that all redheads are evil and should be killed. However, if I start killing redheads, the herd will lock me up. I must conform to the herd's morality or face the consequences of the herd's wrath.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by psstein View Post
              On secularism, there's no ontological foundation for morality. If you believe societies create morality, how do you judge something your society considers moral immoral?
              I can judge society's standards of morality based on my belief that their standard is unfair or unjust. But since this is only my personal opinion, I must operate within the standards of the majority. For instance, if I believe that eating any form of meat is immoral, I am free to abstain from meat. Not eating meat is not a crime. However, if I go around shooting people who are eating meat, that is outside the boundaries of acceptable behavior in my "herd". I can adopt a more restrictive morality for myself, but I cannot impose the more restrictive position on others in the herd. Again, the herd has the last say on which behaviors are tolerated and which behaviors are not tolerated in the herd.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                Absolutely not. I am only one individual in the herd. I have the right to have my own moral standard, but if it violates the moral standard of the herd, I will likely find myself in trouble. For instance, it might be my moral standard that all redheads are evil and should be killed. However, if I start killing redheads, the herd will lock me up. I must conform to the herd's morality or face the consequences of the herd's wrath.
                Which has nothing to do with your passing judgement on the people of Saul's time - you are demanding that your evaluation of the morality of the killing the children be accepted with regard to a matter that you are not qualified to pass judgement on.


                But let's run a small exercise - just to see if you are capable of exercising logic and imagination:

                Can you think of anything that would justify a man chasing down and picking up a 2 year old, then hurl him 10 feet through the air to land in a heap on the ground? - I'llmake it easy for you ... instead of 10 feet, make it 20.
                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  Which has nothing to do with your passing judgement on the people of Saul's time - you are demanding that your evaluation of the morality of the killing the children be accepted with regard to a matter that you are not qualified to pass judgement on.


                  But let's run a small exercise - just to see if you are capable of exercising logic and imagination:

                  Can you think of anything that would justify a man chasing down and picking up a 2 year old, then hurl him 10 feet through the air to land in a heap on the ground? - I'llmake it easy for you ... instead of 10 feet, make it 20.
                  Tabby, I can pass judgment on any issue, present or past, that I choose. The fact that it offends you that I am passing judgment on the behavior of ancient middle-eastern nomadic peoples, is your problem. I do not need to justify my outrage, to you, at their barbaric behavior.

                  As for your hypothetical situation, I am not going to jump into your trap. My position is this: There is never ANY justification for chasing down children to chop them to pieces with your sword or ax, or, run your sword through their little bodies. Period.

                  Your justifications for this immoral act are repugnant. If you were to post your position on any secular forum, you would be considered a sicko.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                    Tabby, I can pass judgment on any issue, present or past, that I choose. The fact that it offends you that I am passing judgment on the behavior of ancient middle-eastern nomadic peoples, is your problem. I do not need to justify my outrage, to you, at their barbaric behavior.

                    As for your hypothetical situation, I am not going to jump into your trap. My position is this: There is never ANY justification for chasing down children to chop them to pieces with your sword or ax, or, run your sword through their little bodies. Period.

                    Your justifications for this immoral act are repugnant. If you were to post your position on any secular forum, you would be considered a sicko.
                    To start with, I could not imagine circumstances that would make it justifiable, and stated that my inability to imagine such a situation did not mean that it could not arise - just that I could think of none.

                    Then because of your prodding, I gave the matter deeper consideration, and found that a situation could possibly exist which would make killing of infants and small children necessary. What that circumstance is, I won't detail.

                    You won't walk into my trap? The trap is of your own making - you can't even imagine circumstances where what I described could be justifiable. You can't even evaluate such a simple matter - yet you think you are qualified to evaluate the deeper matter of killing children at a time and place so far removed from your own.
                    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                      This is what your god ordered his "faithful" to do to thousands of helpless Amalekite, Midianite, and Canaanite children. Shame on all of you for making pathetic justifications for these immoral, barbaric acts..

                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]9426[/ATTACH]
                      Wake up, folks. There is no benevolent, merciful, good, just God. Such a God would not have allowed these little children to have died such horrible deaths. If there is a Creator, which there very well may be, he is either impotent to help them or a monster, indifferent to the suffering of hundreds if not thousands of children dying like these children EVERY SINGLE DAY.

                      Praying to an imaginary, invisible deity is not going to prevent the suffering and deaths of children like those pictured above. These brutal acts will only be prevented if HUMAN BEINGS act to prevent them. Stop praying, and start DOING.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        To start with, I could not imagine circumstances that would make it justifiable, and stated that my inability to imagine such a situation did not mean that it could not arise - just that I could think of none.

                        Then because of your prodding, I gave the matter deeper consideration, and found that a situation could possibly exist which would make killing of infants and small children necessary. What that circumstance is, I won't detail.

                        You won't walk into my trap? The trap is of your own making - you can't even imagine circumstances where what I described could be justifiable. You can't even evaluate such a simple matter - yet you think you are qualified to evaluate the deeper matter of killing children at a time and place so far removed from your own.
                        If you are incapable of categorically condemning the murder of children, Tab, you are sick and immoral.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                          If you are incapable of categorically condemning the murder of children, Tab, you are sick and immoral.
                          You can't evaluate such a simple matter as I presented to you. What makes you think your opinions of me - or of any other (God included) - are valid?

                          I stated that I can envisage circumstances where killing small children would be wholly justifiable. If there is one, there are likely to be others. God has all information at his disposal, with which to make a far more just decision than can I.
                          Last edited by tabibito; 09-05-2015, 02:19 PM.
                          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                          Comment


                          • Real cute. Well first off, that's not what murder is.

                            Second, let's see you once again ignore scholarship. While the first isn't scholarship, while you were whining about evil, I was actually making a statement about it and studying the topic seriously. (You know, something you never did in your Christian days and never do today period.)

                            Here's an Ebook I wrote with an atheist on the topic:

                            http://www.amazon.com/God-Natural-Di...1R9S48SGPCQM02

                            And here are some interviews I've hosted with scholars in the field who specialize in the problem of evil:

                            http://deeperwaters.ddns.net/podcast...2ClayJones.mp3

                            http://deeperwaters.ddns.net/podcast...regGanssle.mp3

                            http://deeperwaters.ddns.net/podcast...2DavidWood.mp3

                            Keep your statements of faith. I'm talking with the scholars and most atheists by the way will even say today that the logical problem of evil has been answered.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              You can't evaluate such a simple matter as I presented to you. What makes you think your opinions of me - or of any other (God included) - are valid?

                              I stated that I can envisage circumstances where killing small children would be wholly justifiable. If there is one, there are likely to be others. God has all information at his disposal, with which to make a far more just decision than can I.
                              You are immoral, Tab. You are brainwashed and immoral.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                                Real cute. Well first off, that's not what murder is.

                                Second, let's see you once again ignore scholarship. While the first isn't scholarship, while you were whining about evil, I was actually making a statement about it and studying the topic seriously. (You know, something you never did in your Christian days and never do today period.)

                                Here's an Ebook I wrote with an atheist on the topic:

                                http://www.amazon.com/God-Natural-Di...1R9S48SGPCQM02

                                And here are some interviews I've hosted with scholars in the field who specialize in the problem of evil:

                                http://deeperwaters.ddns.net/podcast...2ClayJones.mp3

                                http://deeperwaters.ddns.net/podcast...regGanssle.mp3

                                http://deeperwaters.ddns.net/podcast...2DavidWood.mp3

                                Keep your statements of faith. I'm talking with the scholars and most atheists by the way will even say today that the logical problem of evil has been answered.
                                Nick,

                                Do you categorically condemn, in all circumstances, and in all ages, the chasing down of little children to chop off their little arms, legs, or head, or, to run a sword through their little bodies?

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