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  • Originally posted by Gary View Post
    The Facts and Stats on "33,000 Denominations"
    by P
    Now for a few facts and stats from the actual source: World Christian Encyclopedia by Barrett, Kurian, Johnson (Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001).

    The source does refer to 33000+ total "Christian" denominations, but it defines the word "denomination" as an organized Christian group within a specific country:

    “Denominations. A denomination is defined in this Encyclopedia as an organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition within a specific country; i.e. as an organized Christian church or tradition or religious group or community of believers, within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same denominational name in different areas, regarding themselves as one autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions. As defined here, world Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries, these denominations themselves being composed of over 3,400,000 worship centers, churches or congregations.” (Barrett et al, volume 1, page 16, Table 1-5, emphasis added)

    So we have, according to Barrett's Encyclopedia:
    •a denomination is defined as existing within a specific country
    •there are 33,000+ total of these "Christian denominations" in 238 total countries

    These 33,000 are subdivided into "6 major ecclesiastico-cultural mega-blocs", and ordering them by denomination size we have (I am rounding up or down slightly for convenience, using year 2000 figures) :
    ◦Independents (about 22000)
    ◦Protestants (about 9000)
    ◦"Marginals" (about 1600)
    ◦Orthodox (781)
    ◦Roman Catholics (242)
    ◦Anglicans (168)

    So the 33,000 number is from the total of these 6 mega-blocs:

    22000 + 9000 + 1600 + 781 + 242 + 168 = 33,000+

    That's where the 33,000 figure comes from. If you count the "mega-bloc" of "Protestants" only it is 9000 / 33000 or 27% of the total. However, if you combine Protestants with Independents and Anglicans ( [22000 + 9000 + 168] / 33000) it is 94% of the total or 31,000+ . We will see below that most (about 97%) of the "Independent" churches are indeed Protestants. Now that we have that settled, I will examine what the source says about each of these "mega-blocs." All of the information below is found on pages 16-18 (volume 1) of the World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition).
    from Richard N. Ostling, Associated Press, 19 May 2001
    World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition) by David Barrett, et alSince adding a religion doctorate from Columbia University to his technical background, he has spent 40 years systematizing information on world religions, a calling he discovered while assigned as an Anglican missionary in Africa. Now 73, Barrett recently culminated his oddly remarkable career with publication of the second edition of his global accounting of faiths and the faithful -- trends, details and his best estimated count of believers of all religions in each of 238 nations and territories.

    Never has there been such a thorough reference as the two large volumes, running 1,699 pages, of the World Christian Encyclopedia, published by Oxford University Press. Barrett has doggedly visited most of the lands in person, collecting raw material, including national census figures and United Nations data, and recruiting the 444 specialists who feed him material. Among them: Vatican missions librarian Willi Henkel and editor J. Gordon Melton of the Encyclopedia of American Religions. Barrett's encyclopedia sought to count each human being in each religion and religious subcategory in each country as of 1900, 1970, 1990, 1995 and 2000, with projections to 2025.

    The 2001 edition, successor to his 1982 first edition, which took a decade to compile, identifies 10,000 distinct religions, of which 150 have 1 million or more followers. Within Christianity, he counts 33,820 denominations.

    Barrett also calculates religious populations for the Encyclopedia Britannica Book of the Year, standard estimates that are used in turn by the World Almanac and innumerable journalists. Such numbers are always debatable, but they're the best available. "We don't really have any rivals," Barrett says. "That's the problem."

    We Accept All DenominationsTitle: World Christian Encyclopedia : a comparative survey of churches and religions in the modern world
    Authors: David B. Barrett, George T. Kurian, Todd M. Johnson.
    Edition: 2nd ed.
    Published: Oxford ; New York : Oxford University Press, 2001.
    Description: 2 v. : ill., col. maps ; 32 cm.
    Notes: Includes bibliographical references and indexes.
    Contents:
    v. 1. The world by countries : religionists, churches, ministries
    v. 2. The world by segments : religions, peoples, languages, cities, topics.

    Source: http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

    ****Gary: Yet every one of these 33,000 Christian groups believes that a good ghost lives inside them telling only them the real truth, and that all the other 32,999 groups have been deceived by a bad ghost (devil) in one way or another.***
    Last edited by Gary; 09-02-2015, 05:08 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gary View Post
      ****Gary: Yet every one of these 33,000 Christian groups believes that a good ghost lives inside them telling only them the real truth, and that all the other 32,999 groups have been deceived by a bad ghost (devil) in one way or another.***
      Repeating that doesn't make it any more true.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • Denominations are more about autonomy than different viewpoints. They generally agree on the primary doctrines(one triune God,Jesus being fully God and fully man, etc.).


        I bet you can't say something original we haven't heard before.
        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Repeating that doesn't make it any more true.
          Yes, but it does bear repeating...over and over and over again.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
            Denominations are more about autonomy than different viewpoints. They generally agree on the primary doctrines(one triune God,Jesus being fully God and fully man, etc.).


            I bet you can't say something original we haven't heard before.
            How about one unified message on how one attains eternal salvation in Heaven and escapes eternal damnation in Hell? Can you give a concise but all-inclusive statement on the central question that even the largest Christian denominations will agree upon?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gary View Post
              Yes, but it does bear repeating...over and over and over again.
              Like a parrot?
              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                Yes, but it does bear repeating...over and over and over again.
                No, it doesn't, because it's palpably false. The count is enormously inflated by using national lines of demarcation, and very few of the independent churches are 'us against everybody else' types.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                  How about one unified message on how one attains eternal salvation in Heaven and escapes eternal damnation in Hell? Can you give a concise but all-inclusive statement on the central question that even the largest Christian denominations will agree upon?
                  Accept the gift of salvation from Jesus.
                  If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                    Accept the gift of salvation from Jesus.
                    Accept the gift of salvation from Jesus...or else!

                    Comment


                    • Or else you are judged by your deeds. And since none of us has a perfect record by God's standard...
                      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                        Or else you are judged by your deeds. And since none of us has a perfect record by God's standard...
                        Your god is the figment of the imagination of some Bronze Age nomadic goat-herder.

                        Yahweh doesn't exist. He is just one of many ancient Boogeymen invented to control the ignorant masses. He belongs in the same graveyard of debunked myths as Zeus and Jupiter.

                        Last edited by Gary; 09-02-2015, 06:22 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                          Or else you are judged by your deeds. And since none of us has a perfect record by God's standard...
                          See. This is what it always comes down to: Christians can talk all day about Jesus' love, but at the end of the discussion, if you refuse to reciprocate Jesus compassionate, self-sacrificing, merciful love...Jesus will torture your wicked ass, in some manner, forever and ever in his specially-prepared torture pit.

                          That is a cult, friends. Plain and simple. Your belief system is a fear-based cult.

                          Dante's Inferno, painting of Hell.jpg

                          "For the Christian god Yahweh so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son Jesus that whosoever makes the decision to become a Christian by believing in him, loving him, and obeying him will live forever in Heaven in eternal bliss, but all non-Christians, even those who have been generous, kind, giving people their entire lives, will suffer eternal torment in the Lake of Fire...forever and ever."

                          Any one who believes this Bible verse and yet still claims that his god is loving, merciful, and good is brainwashed or mentally deranged.
                          Last edited by Gary; 09-02-2015, 06:58 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                            The Facts and Stats on "33,000 Denominations"
                            by P
                            Now for a few facts and stats from the actual source: World Christian Encyclopedia by Barrett, Kurian, Johnson (Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001).

                            The source does refer to 33000+ total "Christian" denominations, but it defines the word "denomination" as an organized Christian group within a specific country:

                            “Denominations. A denomination is defined in this Encyclopedia as an organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition within a specific country; i.e. as an organized Christian church or tradition or religious group or community of believers, within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same denominational name in different areas, regarding themselves as one autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions. As defined here, world Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries, these denominations themselves being composed of over 3,400,000 worship centers, churches or congregations.” (Barrett et al, volume 1, page 16, Table 1-5, emphasis added)

                            So we have, according to Barrett's Encyclopedia:
                            •a denomination is defined as existing within a specific country
                            •there are 33,000+ total of these "Christian denominations" in 238 total countries

                            These 33,000 are subdivided into "6 major ecclesiastico-cultural mega-blocs", and ordering them by denomination size we have (I am rounding up or down slightly for convenience, using year 2000 figures) :
                            ◦Independents (about 22000)
                            ◦Protestants (about 9000)
                            ◦"Marginals" (about 1600)
                            ◦Orthodox (781)
                            ◦Roman Catholics (242)
                            ◦Anglicans (168)

                            So the 33,000 number is from the total of these 6 mega-blocs:

                            22000 + 9000 + 1600 + 781 + 242 + 168 = 33,000+

                            That's where the 33,000 figure comes from. If you count the "mega-bloc" of "Protestants" only it is 9000 / 33000 or 27% of the total. However, if you combine Protestants with Independents and Anglicans ( [22000 + 9000 + 168] / 33000) it is 94% of the total or 31,000+ . We will see below that most (about 97%) of the "Independent" churches are indeed Protestants. Now that we have that settled, I will examine what the source says about each of these "mega-blocs." All of the information below is found on pages 16-18 (volume 1) of the World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition).
                            You demonstrated the point that only by using the most ridiculously liberal definition for "denomination" can you arrive at that figure.

                            As I noted in an earlier post assigning a different denomination for each country that they are in is just one problem. For instance, when it comes to groups like Independent Baptists each church is regarded as a different denomination

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              You demonstrated the point that only by using the most ridiculously liberal definition for "denomination" can you arrive at that figure.

                              As I noted in an earlier post assigning a different denomination for each country that they are in is just one problem. For instance, when it comes to groups like Independent Baptists each church is regarded as a different denomination
                              I specifically said "denominations and SECTS".

                              But even if we use your definition, we are still talking about several hundred different Christian groups, each one believing that the Holy Spirit has guided them in some fashion to the real truth, while all the other hundreds of Christian groups are in error. Either 99% of all Christian denominations are not listening to God; your God is sloppy and giving mixed signals; or your god does not exist and your belief that he does is only a figment of your imagination.
                              Last edited by Gary; 09-02-2015, 07:38 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                                I specifically said "denominations and SECTS".
                                Source: Dictionary Tooltip

                                n.
                                1. a body of persons adhering to a particular religious faith; denomination.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                Do you enjoy making yourself look stupid?

                                But even if we use your definition, we are still talking about several hundred different Christian groups,
                                No, that's still stretching things a bit.
                                each one believing that the Holy Spirit has guided them in some fashion to the real truth, while all the other hundreds of Christian groups are in error.
                                Not especially. While there are fringe groups that differ significantly from the norm, the beliefs of most groups differ only in minor detail. Jaroslav Pelikan, when editing his massive three-volume Creeds and Confessions of Faith in the Christian Tradition, observed that he kept asking himself while proofing the work, "have I read this before?" because they tended to be so difficult to distinguish en masse.
                                Either 99% of all Christian denominations are not listening to God; your God is sloppy and giving mixed signals; or your god does not exist and your belief that he does is only a figment of your imagination.
                                Or, as is usual with your proffered choices, none of the above.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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