Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[Christianbookworm]

Why does Gary think we hold to the fiery torture of hell view instead of the view that hell is a state of shame and separation from God? And young children aren't in danger of hell. Because they are incapable of shame.

I'd argue that claiming God will torture your child if they misbehave is spiritual abuse.

[Gary]

Why does Gary think we hold to the fiery torture of hell view instead of the view that hell is a state of shame and separation from God? And young children aren't in danger of hell. Because they are incapable of shame.

I'd argue that claiming God will torture your child if they misbehave is spiritual abuse.

There are over 30,000 Christian denominations and sects. I cannot account for the teachings of all of them. My "campaign" is against conservative Christianity, the branch of Christianity that continues to teach that the Christian god will punish non-believers of Jesus in an eternal place of torment (torture). Below is the position of the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the United States, on the doctrine of Hell:


From The Christian Outpost: Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/51...qm9qDC6ZY0h.99
June 16, 2011|12:16 am

Rejecting Rob Bell’s view on hell, Southern Baptists affirmed the historical biblical teaching on hell as an “eternal conscious punishment” in a resolution that was passed on the last day of the denomination’s annual meeting. The resolution, entitled “Reality of Hell,” specifically mentions Rob Bell’s controversial book Love Wins. The book, released in March, criticizes the belief that a few Christians will spend eternity in heaven while everyone else is eternally punished in hell.


“Rob Bell, in his 2011 book, Love Wins, has called into question the church's historical teaching on the doctrine of eternal punishment of the unregenerate,” reads the resolution, which was introduced and passed Wednesday at the Southern Baptist Convention annual convention in Phoenix, Arizona. The messengers to the SBC meeting voted to “hereby affirm our belief in the biblical teaching on eternal conscious punishment of the unregenerate in Hell.”

The three-paragraph resolution also urged Southern Baptists to hold fast to the teachings on the reality of hell and salvation found in Christ alone.

“RESOLVED, That out of our love for lost people and our deep desire that they will not suffer eternally in Hell, we implore Southern Baptists to proclaim faithfully the depth and gravity of sin against a holy God, the reality of Hell, and the salvation of sinners by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, to the glory of God alone,” read the statement.

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David Platt, pastor of The Church at Brook Hills in Birmingham, Ala., and author of the bestselling book Radical, also referenced Rob Bell’s view on hell in a sermon delivered following the morning’s vote on several resolutions. While Bell acknowledges in his book that hell is a literal reality, he suggests that “hell is not forever, and love, in the end, wins.” Bell says the Greek word aion, which is translated to mean “eternal,” could also mean “period of time.”

In his convention sermon, Platt took issue with Bell’s claim that hell may not be forever. "Is hell real? Is hell forever? Did God really say sinners would perish in eternal torment forever and ever?" the pastor asked.He cautioned readers of Rob Bell’s book to “listen very carefully be very cautious, when anyone says, `Did God really say this?"'

Several prominent evangelical Christian scholars, including Southern Baptist Theological Seminary president Albert Mohler, have strongly denounced Bell’s teachings on hell as unbiblical. They have also accused Bell with being a universalist, a charge the author has verbally denied.

Baptists, in general, on Hell:

"The majority of Baptists believe that hell is a literal lake of fire that burns with brimstone. This belief is based on Jesus' descriptions of hell as recorded in the Gospels, descriptions of the lake of fire in the book of Revelation and other passages in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. Some Baptists describe hell less graphically as an eternal separation from God. Baptists agree that hell is an eternal place of punishment for those who have not received salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ." Source: http://people.opposingviews.com/bapt...tone-3362.html

[One Bad Pig]

There are over 30,000 Christian denominations and sects.

False. That number is enormously inflated.

[rogue06]

False. That number is enormously inflated.

And changes with each telling. To say that number is enormously inflated is actually an understatement. It is based on a radically open definition of what "denomination" is. For instance under the definition used to arrive at that number if there two independent Baptist churches on each side of the street, each one of them is considered a different denomination. In fact every independent Baptist church is deemed to be a different denomination by the definition used to arrive at this figure. In fact even within Catholicism there are a number of "denominations" since they call the various orders within it separate denominations.

Further, every single Bible society or church club is considered to be a different denomination than the church or churches that it is affiliated with.

Finally, many groups that aren't even Christian often get added in to help inflate the number. Some are Christian denominations in the same way that Islam is a Christian or Jewish denomination

If someone wants to understand just how ridiculous this figure is then try to name just twenty actual Christian denominations from memory alone. If there were really tens of thousands of them then you shouldn't have any difficulty rattling off a hundred so a mere twenty ought to be a real breeze.

[Adrift]

Yep. More from the source:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post173006

[Gary]

Why does Gary think we hold to the fiery torture of hell view instead of the view that hell is a state of shame and separation from God? And young children aren't in danger of hell. Because they are incapable of shame.

I'd argue that claiming God will torture your child if they misbehave is spiritual abuse.

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, the second largest Lutheran body in the United States also believes that Hell is eternal and that "horrible doom" awaits all non-believers in Jesus:

In his book What's the Answer? (Concordia Publishing House, 1960), LCMS theologian Otto Sohn raises the question, "What stand does our church take regarding the heathen who have never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and what is the individual's responsibility toward these people?" His answer follows:

Christ, the Savior of the world, answered the first question in this way: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16). The apostle Peter put it another way: "Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). The same truth is expressed in John 3:16 and 18:36; Rom. 2:12; Eph. 2:11-13.

Though such people have not heard the Gospel, they are without excuse (Rom. 1:19-23 and 2:12). God has not left Himself without witness (Acts 14:17), but He has revealed His existence by the works of nature and wants men to seek Him, if "haply they might feel after Him and find Him" (Acts 17:27). The Bible also reveals that people who knowingly and willfully reject the Gospel of Jesus will be more severely punished than those who never heard it (Luke 12:47, 48).

Because of the horrible doom awaiting all those who do not believe in Jesus, we should seek to reach as many as possible with our own fearless witness and ardently support the missionary endeavors of our church on behalf of those whom we cannot reach with our own voice. Nor must we forget our responsibility toward fellow Christians who are on the verge of erring from the truth, whether by word or deed (Gal. 6:1; James 5:19, 20). And lest we should preach to others, but ourselves become castaways, we should be earnestly concerned about our own salvation (Matt. 26:41; 1 Cor. 10:12; Phil. 2:12).

Source: http://www.lcms.org/faqs/doctrine#heaven

[Gary]

Why does Gary think we hold to the fiery torture of hell view instead of the view that hell is a state of shame and separation from God? And young children aren't in danger of hell. Because they are incapable of shame.

I'd argue that claiming God will torture your child if they misbehave is spiritual abuse.

And here is the Roman Catholic position on Hell and a few quotes on the subject from some of the earliest Christians:

Source: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is

The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous heretical sects end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormons—all have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat. In recent decades, this decay has even invaded mainstream Evangelicalism, and a number of major Evangelical figures have advocated the view that there is no eternal hell—the wicked will simply be annihilated.

But the eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, "[I]t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).

In his 1994 book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II wrote that too often "preachers, catechists, teachers . . . no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell" (p. 183).

Concerning the reality of hell, the pope says, "In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . [T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard" (pp. 185–6).

Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the reality of an eternal hell, as the following quotes show.

Ignatius of Antioch:

"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).


Second Clement:

"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).

Gary: So adding up just the Baptists, the LCMS Lutherans, and the Roman Catholic Church, a large percentage of Christianity in the United States believes in a literal Hell where people are tortured in some "horrible" fashion forever and ever. So ChristianBookWorm may be speaking just for himself or his particular sect but my assertion that most of conservative Christianity views hell as a place of eternal torment is proven correct.

[Christianbookworm]

Still don't see anything about torturing babies for eternity. Being separated from God for eternity is only "torture" for a Christian(who wants to be with God and won't ever be separated anyway), not for those who don't want to be in God's presence.

[Gary]

Still don't see anything about torturing babies for eternity. Being separated from God for eternity is only "torture" for a Christian(who wants to be with God and won't ever be separated anyway), not for those who don't want to be in God's presence.

Who said anything about torturing babies? The child in the photo is at least eight or nine and probably a little older than that. Therefore, she has already reached the mythical (not-found-anywhere-in-the-Bible, by the way) Baptist concept of "The Age of Accountability", so she will fry like bacon, forever, in a literal Hell, all for not begging the loving Jesus to spare her from her destiny on an eternal barbecue spit... if Baptists and Catholics are correct.

[tabibito]

And changes with each telling. To say that number is enormously inflated is actually an understatement. It is based on a radically open definition of what "denomination" is. For instance under the definition used to arrive at that number if there two independent Baptist churches on each side of the street, each one of them is considered a different denomination. In fact every independent Baptist church is deemed to be a different denomination by the definition used to arrive at this figure. In fact even within Catholicism there are a number of "denominations" since they call the various orders within it separate denominations.

Further, every single Bible society or church club is considered to be a different denomination than the church or churches that it is affiliated with.

Finally, many groups that aren't even Christian often get added in to help inflate the number. Some are Christian denominations in the same way that Islam is a Christian or Jewish denomination

If someone wants to understand just how ridiculous this figure is then try to name just twenty actual Christian denominations from memory alone. If there were really tens of thousands of them then you shouldn't have any difficulty rattling off a hundred so a mere twenty ought to be a real breeze.

I think it would be fair to say hundreds ... even without the fudging, and some of them are kind of blurry: Orthodox churches - 1 denomination or several. They don't all have the same number of books in their Bibles, and even those that do have slightly different selections.

From what you have said though, Anglican, Church of England, and Episcopalian would count as three.

[One Bad Pig]

I think it would be fair to say hundreds ... even without the fudging, and some of them are kind of blurry: Orthodox churches - 1 denomination or several. They don't all have the same number of books in their Bibles, and even those that do have slightly different selections.

That's kind of an odd way to categorize Orthodox jurisdictions, considering that it's never been dogmatically defined. Jurisdictions in communion with one another should be defined as a single group, in any case.

[Christianbookworm]

Who said anything about torturing babies? The child in the photo is at least eight or nine and probably a little older than that. Therefore, she has already reached the mythical (not-found-anywhere-in-the-Bible, by the way) Baptist concept of "The Age of Accountability", so she will fry like bacon, forever, in a literal Hell for not begging the loving Jesus to spare her from her destiny on an eternal barbecue spit in Hell... if Baptists and Catholics are correct.

It's a case by case basis of when a child is old enough to be held morally accountable for their actions. And stop acting like heaven and hell are black and white fates. If heaven was a passing grade(only obtained by accepting the gift of salvation since we all failed the righteousness test) and hell was a failing grade, there would still be graduated categories based on one's work. A Christian could get a A,B,C, or D depending on how they acted here. Someone who didn't accept the gift but still didn't do too many things wrong could still have a high F and have a much better fate than evil mcevuls with the lowest possible score. Assuming that the girl isn't a juvenile delinquent, she'd have at least a high F.

[rogue06]

I think it would be fair to say hundreds ... even without the fudging, and some of them are kind of blurry: Orthodox churches - 1 denomination or several. They don't all have the same number of books in their Bibles, and even those that do have slightly different selections.

From what you have said though, Anglican, Church of England, and Episcopalian would count as three.

As Adrift's source shows they count as a different denomination in each country they are in. Just like Catholics. Think of it. Catholics in the U.S. are a different denomination than those in Mexico. And both are different denominations from those in Spain. And the Catholics in France are a separate denomination than the Catholics in the U.S., Mexico and Spain. And on and on.

The methodology employed to arrive at these figures is ridiculous.

[Gary]

It's a case by case basis of when a child is old enough to be held morally accountable for their actions. And stop acting like heaven and hell are black and white fates. If heaven was a passing grade(only obtained by accepting the gift of salvation since we all failed the righteousness test) and hell was a failing grade, there would still be graduated categories based on one's work. A Christian could get a A,B,C, or D depending on how they acted here. Someone who didn't accept the gift but still didn't do too many things wrong could still have a high F and have a much better fate than evil mcevuls with the lowest possible score. Assuming that the girl isn't a juvenile delinquent, she'd have at least a high F.

Your beliefs regarding this ancient Christian teaching are the position of which major Christian denomination or sect???

[Gary]

As Adrift's source shows they count as a different denomination in each country they are in. Just like Catholics. Think of it. Catholics in the U.S. are a different denomination than those in Mexico. And both are different denominations from those in Spain. And the Catholics in France are a separate denomination than the Catholics in the U.S., Mexico and Spain. And on and on.

The methodology employed to arrive at these figures is ridiculous.

The Facts and Stats on "33,000 Denominations"
by P
Now for a few facts and stats from the actual source: World Christian Encyclopedia by Barrett, Kurian, Johnson (Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001).

The source does refer to 33000+ total "Christian" denominations, but it defines the word "denomination" as an organized Christian group within a specific country:

“Denominations. A denomination is defined in this Encyclopedia as an organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition within a specific country; i.e. as an organized Christian church or tradition or religious group or community of believers, within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same denominational name in different areas, regarding themselves as one autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions. As defined here, world Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries, these denominations themselves being composed of over 3,400,000 worship centers, churches or congregations.” (Barrett et al, volume 1, page 16, Table 1-5, emphasis added)

So we have, according to Barrett's Encyclopedia:
•a denomination is defined as existing within a specific country
•there are 33,000+ total of these "Christian denominations" in 238 total countries

These 33,000 are subdivided into "6 major ecclesiastico-cultural mega-blocs", and ordering them by denomination size we have (I am rounding up or down slightly for convenience, using year 2000 figures) :
◦Independents (about 22000)
◦Protestants (about 9000)
◦"Marginals" (about 1600)
◦Orthodox (781)
◦Roman Catholics (242)
◦Anglicans (168)

So the 33,000 number is from the total of these 6 mega-blocs:

22000 + 9000 + 1600 + 781 + 242 + 168 = 33,000+

That's where the 33,000 figure comes from. If you count the "mega-bloc" of "Protestants" only it is 9000 / 33000 or 27% of the total. However, if you combine Protestants with Independents and Anglicans ( [22000 + 9000 + 168] / 33000) it is 94% of the total or 31,000+ . We will see below that most (about 97%) of the "Independent" churches are indeed Protestants. Now that we have that settled, I will examine what the source says about each of these "mega-blocs." All of the information below is found on pages 16-18 (volume 1) of the World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition).