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  • Originally posted by Gary View Post
    Thank you, Pig.

    So by your standards, if a person reads ONE book by a NT scholar regarding the evidence for the Resurrection they should therefore be informed and competent to make an intelligent and informed decision regarding the historicity of this alleged event.

    I have read one entire book, that of NT Wright, all 800+ pages, and I have read many articles by other Christian NT scholars, therefore by your standard I am informed. You can accuse me of being biased and closed-minded, but by your standard, I am not "uninformed", as Nick and Stein have alleged.
    You have shown no evidence whatsoever that you learned anything at all by reading it.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gary View Post
      Here is what Biblical scholar Marcus Borg said regarding the evidence for the historical Jesus that would be agreed upon by most historians. Notice that the Resurrection is not included.

      "We do know some things about the historical Jesus — less than some Christians think, but more than some skeptics think,” said Marcus Borg, a preeminent Biblical scholar, author and retired professor of religion and culture at Oregon State University. “Though a few books have recently argued that Jesus never existed, the evidence that he did is persuasive to the vast majority of scholars, whether Christian or non-Christian.”

      The following description, surmised from the Gospels, would be affirmed by most history scholars, Borg told LiveScience:

      Jesus was born sometime just before 4 B.C. and grew up in Nazareth, a small village in Galilee, as part of the peasant class. Jesus' father was a carpenter and he became one, too, meaning that they had likely lost their agricultural land at some point. Jesus was raised Jewish and he remained deeply Jewish all of his life; he never intended to create a new religion. Rather, he saw himself as acting within Judaism.

      He left Nazareth as an adult and met the prophet John, who baptized him. During his baptism, Jesus likely experienced some sort of divine vision. Shortly afterwards, he began his public preaching with the message that the world could be transformed into a "Kingdom of God." He became a noted teacher and prophet, as well as a healer: More healing stories are told about Jesus than about any other figure in the Jewish tradition.

      He was executed by Roman imperial authority, and his followers experienced him after his death. It is clear, Borg said, that they had visions of Jesus as they had known him during his historical life. Only after his death did they declare Jesus to be "lord" or "the son of God."

      Source: http://www.livescience.com/13711-jes...ence-hold.html
      Borg? He's not exactly preeminent, just popular because he's controversial. Of course, the article was written by a physics major, so what does she know? It looks suspiciously like Borg's hypothetical is based less on what the text actually says than on what people think actually could have happened. IOW, resurrection is ruled out before the text is even consulted, so he goes with what he feels is the most plausible alternative solution.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • I happen to agree with Stein. Gary's question reminds me of a husband wanting to have a romantic evening with his wife and saying "Okay. How much do I have to do before you want to have a good time tonight? Dinner? Dinner and a movie? Dinner and a movie and ordering flowers? Do you want me to vacuum also? Tell me how much."

        There is no magic number and people wanting a magic number are not interested in research but in doing the bare minimum. If Gary wants to keep arguing against Christianity, then he should be reading in the field constantly. Instead, he's going to web sites and Amazon reviews instead of reading actual books. He's also going with hacks like Hallquist and Norman. As for Marcus Borg, wow. Borg doesn't believe in the resurrection. Imagine that. What is being said here is we have sufficient evidence for the resurrection based on the data accepted by critical scholar. Perhaps he could put forward Borg's hypothesis to explain the data about the resurrection that we do have. As has been said, many writers, even Christians, don't go in-depth here.

        Comment


        • Most scholars avoid the Resurrection in general. Some will (rather cautiously) talk about the tomb and the post-mortem appearances, but are always careful to qualify their statements.

          This thread is becoming a waste of time.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by psstein View Post

            This thread is becoming a waste of time.
            Becoming?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by psstein View Post
              Most scholars avoid the Resurrection in general. Some will (rather cautiously) talk about the tomb and the post-mortem appearances, but are always careful to qualify their statements.

              This thread is becoming a waste of time.
              Shall we conclude this thread? Here is how we should conclude it:

              1. Christians DO have evidence for the existence of Jesus, his ministry, his crucifixion, and the very early belief by his followers that they had seen him, in some fashion, after his death.
              2. There is no evidence for the resurrection itself. Not even the Bible claims that anyone witnessed this event.
              3. The alleged resurrection of Jesus is not included as an historical event in any public university history text book, unlike Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon, Alexander's sacking of Tyre, or Nebuchadnezzar's capture of Jerusalem. Christians are therefore wrong in claiming that the resurrection of Jesus has just as much if not more evidence than any other event in ancient history.

              The resurrection/reanimation of Jesus is an alleged event. Skeptics cannot prove it did not happen, but Christians do not have enough evidence to prove it did. The fact that Christians expect skeptics to read numerous books by biased scholars is proof that the evidence is very weak. If it were strong, one wouldn't need to read even one entire book, to believe it.

              I hope that one day the truth will finally become evident to each one of you. Yahweh isn't real and Jesus is dead. You can still be a Christian, following the humanistic teachings of Jesus, but abandon all the supernatural superstitions. The world will be a much better place without them.

              Good Bye.
              Last edited by Gary; 09-02-2015, 11:08 AM.

              Comment


              • Edited by a Moderator

                Moderated By: Littlejoe

                You should know better than that by now. That word is not allowed even in a pic...

                ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                Last edited by Littlejoe; 09-02-2015, 11:41 AM.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • I don't think that picture is okay. It has a bad word on it!
                  If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                  Comment


                  • http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TKrZOVCthC...giousabuse.jpg

                    Comment


                    • You're a hoot, Gary. How many times now have you unilaterally declared victory and left?
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Edited by a Moderator

                        Moderated By: Littlejoe

                        You should know better than that by now. That word is not allowed even in a pic...

                        ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                        Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                        ACK - Wasn't thinking. Apologies.

                        chess mess.jpg
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          You're a hoot, Gary. How many times now have you unilaterally declared victory and left?
                          Keep leaving snide comments and I will keep coming back. Nick should know that that is my MO, at least if he knows me as long as he says he does.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            ACK - Wasn't thinking. Apologies.

                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]9302[/ATTACH]
                            Child Abuse by Religion.jpg

                            Both of these statements, if made to children, should be a criminal offense.

                            This is why I am an "evangelist" against supernaturalism. It teaches children that there really are invisible Boogeymen: Yahweh and Lucifer. Both are scary bad guys who threaten little children and adults with all kinds of terrible punishments. They very much need debunking and that is my goal in my discussions with all of you. I realize that most of you are a lost cause, but my hope is that maybe even one person "lurking" on this thread will wake up to the sick delusion that has been so thoroughly ingrained into your brains.
                            Last edited by Gary; 09-02-2015, 12:53 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]9303[/ATTACH]

                              Both of these statements, if made to children, should be a criminal offense.
                              Ah, the lovely odor of burning straw.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                                Keep leaving snide comments and I will keep coming back. Nick should know that that is my MO, at least if he knows me as long as he says he does.
                                I don't care if you leave or not, Gary. I'm not the one who looks silly by declaring his departure and subsequently returning.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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