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  • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    You see a lot of dead bodies in your specialization do you? What do you specialize in?
    I am board certified in family practice. I have seen plenty of dead bodies in my medical school days, residency, and in the hospital. I have never seen a dead body's face turn "black". It is just ridiculous.

    Please explain to me why this "documented" medical miracle was not reported in every newspaper and medical journal in the world. Let me guess your answer: "A conspiracy against Christianity in the medical community??"

    This is what it always comes down to when conservative Christians run out of excuses to prop up this ancient tall tale: a conspiracy.

    This is the same justification that Christians use to explain why non-Christian historians don't believe in the resurrection or the position by the overwhelming majority of archeologists regarding the non-existent evidence for OT claims such as the Exodus of millions of Hebrews from Egypt: a conspiracy against Christianity.
    Last edited by Gary; 08-24-2015, 12:44 PM.

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    • Originally posted by William View Post
      I'm just reading 1 Cor 15 in it's entirety and saying how some view it. They may have presuppositions and you may too, but that does not change what 1 Cor 15 says.

      When I present Bible studies, the first stage of any session is devoted to studying the text and determining exactly what each sentence in the text says - no additions, no deletions, insofar as the text will allow - nothing that looks like a leading question.
      What 1 Corinthians 15 says is - Jesus was raised from the dead: it is on this fact that our own hope for resurrection is based: if Jesus was not raised, our hope is in vain.
      It does not say:
      1/ that our resurrections will follow a similar pattern
      2/ that our resurrections will follow a different pattern
      3/ that Christ was raised in the flesh (although it does, if you know the implication of the word translated as raised - but that is not implication is not present in English.)
      4/ that Christ was not raised in the flesh, but in some other form.
      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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      • Originally posted by Gary View Post
        Tabby: Do you know the Christian in this story? Do you know the atheist in this story? If not, this story was given to you second, third, fourth, twentieth-hand. The whole story could be an invention. And that is exactly what many skeptics believe about many of the stories in the gospels.
        Yes - I do know the people in the story. You will note that I have not accepted (neither rejected) other stories, including Keeners, because I do not know enough about details, and nothing about the people involved. From the little that I have seen of Keener's work, he seems to have been careful - that is as much as I can say about his work.
        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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        • Keep trying.

          In order for a dead corpse's face to be blue, dark brown, or purple, he would have had to have been dead for many hours AND have been lying face down the entire time. It would still not be black. And, any doctor who leaves his patient face down while attempting to prevent his death, for hours, will lose his license due to malpractice. The story is preposterous.

          If the patient's toes were black then they were black before the patient died. They would not turn "black" within the first 24 hours after death. I would like to know exactly how much time expired between the patient being pronounced dead and being found with a heartbeat. There are plenty of documented cases where someone was thought to be dead but wasn't. This story is more fishy than your Uncle Bob's fish stories.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gary View Post
            I am board certified in family practice. I have seen plenty of dead bodies in my medical school days, residency, and in the hospital.
            So it's not something you commonly see in your practice. Again, what exactly is your specialization? You don't have to tell us if you don't want to, just curious.

            Please explain to me why this "documented" medical miracle was not reported in every newspaper and medical journal in the world. Let me guess your answer: "A conspiracy against Christianity in the medical community??"

            This is what it always comes down to when conservative Christians run out of excuses to prop up this ancient tall tale: a conspiracy.

            This is the same justification that Christians use to explain why non-Christian historians don't believe in the resurrection or the position by the overwhelming majority of archeologists regarding the non-existent evidence for OT claims such as the Exodus of millions of Hebrews from Egypt: a conspiracy against Christianity.
            Yeeeah-no, I don't think there's any conspiracy. Where do you get this stuff from? You believed this sort of malarkey when you called yourself a Christian, didn't you?

            Anyways, apparently the news did cover it (bit of a fluff piece, if you ask me).

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              Yes - I do know the people in the story. You will note that I have not accepted (neither rejected) other stories, including Keeners, because I do not know enough about details, and nothing about the people involved. From the little that I have seen of Keener's work, he seems to have been careful - that is as much as I can say about his work.
              So you personally know the Christian and the atheist? Please repeat the story and tell me which parts were told to you by the Christian and which parts were told to you by the atheist.

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              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                So you personally know the Christian and the atheist? Please repeat the story and tell me which parts were told to you by the Christian and which parts were told to you by the atheist.
                I was one of the people involved in the conversation.
                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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                • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  So it's not something you commonly see in your practice. Again, what exactly is your specialization? You don't have to tell us if you don't want to, just curious.



                  Yeeeah-no, I don't think there's any conspiracy. Where do you get this stuff from? You believed this sort of malarkey when you called yourself a Christian, didn't you?

                  Anyways, apparently the news did cover it (bit of a fluff piece, if you ask me).

                  Ok. I hope everyone watches this video:

                  1. A middle-aged man has a heart attack and is brought to the emergency room without a pulse.
                  2. The ER doctors try to revive him for a half hour. (I have participated in these codes myself.)
                  3. The cardiologist (a Christian) gets ready to leave the patient but hears a "voice" that tells him to go back and try again.
                  4. The cardiologist says a prayer and asks the ER doctor to shock the guy's chest one more time.
                  5. After being shocked, the patient's heart starts again.

                  Did a miracle happen? Maybe.

                  What is odd is that the man's heart did not restart immediately after the cardiologist said a prayer to Jesus. The man's heart started only after he had his heart shocked again. I believe that this story typifies what is involved in most miracle claims: someone says a prayer and gives God the credit for the healing, but forgets to mention that doctors, medications, and cardioversion that took place at the same time.

                  Once again, we skeptics cannot prove that this man's heart did not restart due to a miracle, but we have many very probable, naturalistic alternative explanations for the event, so believers cannot claim as fact that a supernatural cause is the best explanation.

                  I'm not going to argue miracle claims anymore with any of you. You can't prove they happen and I can't prove they don't. All I can prove is that 99% of them have alternative, much more probable explanations.
                  Last edited by Gary; 08-24-2015, 01:22 PM.

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                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    I was one of the people involved in the conversation.
                    Ok, so I assume that you were the Christian. So tell me again what you told your atheist friend and what you knew, if anything, about his father's health at the time.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                      Ok. I hope everyone watches this video:

                      1. A middle-aged man has a heart attack and is brought to the emergency room without a pulse.
                      2. The ER doctors try to revive him for a half hour. (I have participated in these codes myself.)
                      3. The cardiologist (a Christian) gets ready to leave the patient but hears a "voice" that tells him to go back and try again.
                      4. The cardiologist says a prayer and asks the ER doctor to shock the guy's chest one more time.
                      5. After being shocked, the patient's heart starts again.

                      Did a miracle happen? Maybe.

                      What is odd is that the man's heart did not restart immediately after the cardiologist said a prayer to Jesus. The man's heart started only after he had his heart shocked again. I believe that this story typifies what is involved in most miracle claims: someone says a prayer and gives God the credit for the healing, but forgets to mention that doctors, medications, and cardioversion that took place at the same time.

                      Once again, we skeptics cannot prove that this man's heart did not restart due to a miracle, but we have many very probable, naturalistic explanations for the event, so believers cannot claim as fact that a supernatural cause is the best explanation.

                      I'm not going to argue miracle claims anymore with any of you. You can't prove they happen and I can't prove they don't. All I can prove is that 99% of them have alternative, much more probable explanations.
                      It is not enough to deal with only a part of the story - you need to be able to account for all the elements.
                      Taking the story at face value, accepting that the report is true to the extent of the knowledge of the people involved:
                      Insofar as the actual revival is concerned - I agree with the assessment, and would accept that in all probability the patient was not dead in the absolute sense. However, that explanation fails to address the phenomenon of the voice telling the attending physician to try again. Of course there is a possible naturalistic explanation for that event too - but I won't buy it.
                      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                        Ok. I hope everyone watches this video:

                        1. A middle-aged man has a heart attack and is brought to the emergency room without a pulse.
                        2. The ER doctors try to revive him for a half hour. (I have participated in these codes myself.)
                        3. The cardiologist (a Christian) gets ready to leave the patient but hears a "voice" that tells him to go back and try again.
                        4. The cardiologist says a prayer and asks the ER doctor to shock the guy's chest one more time.
                        5. After being shocked, the patient's heart starts again.

                        Did a miracle happen? Maybe.

                        What is odd is that the man's heart did not restart immediately after the cardiologist said a prayer to Jesus. The man's heart started only after he had his heart shocked again. I believe that this story typifies what is involved in most miracle claims: someone says a prayer and gives God the credit for the healing, but forgets to mention that doctors, medications, and cardioversion that took place at the same time.

                        Once again, we skeptics cannot prove that this man's heart did not restart due to a miracle, but we have many very probable, naturalistic alternative explanations for the event, so believers cannot claim as fact that a supernatural cause is the best explanation.

                        I'm not going to argue miracle claims anymore with any of you. You can't prove they happen and I can't prove they don't. All I can prove assert is that 99% of them have alternative, much more probable explanations.
                        Fixed that for you.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                        • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                          Ok, so I assume that you were the Christian. So tell me again what you told your atheist friend and what you knew, if anything, about his father's health at the time.
                          As I said: I had not seen my friend for some weeks, and had not seen his father for some months. Nor had I had contact with anyone who knew his father in the time since I had last seen my friend. I was aware that his father would soon die, and that it was urgent that my friend return home to spend time with him: hence the phone call.
                          sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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                          • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            I don't know of any critical scholars that say anything about the historicity of the actual resurrection of Jesus in any of their academic work. What disagreements are you referring to here?
                            oh, well I guess I have misunderstood. I had thought a prevailing opinion and argument here was that most scholars agree there was a Resurrection and that we should side with the scholars. I had said a few times that my understanding was the most scholars agreed that there were some who believed he had come back from the dead, but that that was quite different than actually vouching for the supernatural event itself...

                            if we're in agreement, then I guess we're good.

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                            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              Oh look, moving goalposts!
                              you guys would be experts at recognizing this since you're well practiced in it.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by William View Post
                                you guys would be experts at recognizing this since you're well practiced in it.
                                Definitely - thoroughly schooled in identifying moving goalposts by the familiarity of having the process so frequently imposed on us. You blokes are rank amateurs.
                                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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