Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by William View Post
    yeah, I understand that there is even disagreement among critical Scholars regarding the actual Resurrection of Jesus.

    But A was broad too, as I did not specify a particular miracle, but am speaking with regard to miracles in general.

    I ask, because it seems so many here insist that the scholars should be trusted and that doubts in miracles can be overcome by looking to the scholars.
    This seems like an oversimplification of what has been presented here. What scholars have to say should not be accepted uncritically; on the other hand, what scholars have to say should not be handwaved away in favor of a non-scholar's opinion in the area of that scholar's expertise.

    Not all the scholars agree number one, and two, i would think that human error is more likely and happens more often than miracles.
    You don't say.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      So what excuse do you advance for failing to understand that Keener was saying, "Not all can" instead of the interpretation "None can" that you so stridently ascribed to it.

      I don't see how you got that one either: Keener clearly states that the least unlikely reports get mentioned in Chapter 12.

      So - now that we have discussed the contents of a book that we neither one have read enough of to make informed comment -
      perhaps you could address the matter of the Christian's remarks to his atheist friend during a phone call. Specifically addressing the issue that the Christian knows that nothing was faked, and the Atheist's compliance with the Christian's advice.
      Tabby: Do you know the Christian in this story? Do you know the atheist in this story? If not, this story was given to you second, third, fourth, twentieth-hand. The whole story could be an invention. And that is exactly what many skeptics believe about many of the stories in the gospels.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by William View Post
        Nick and Others,

        Which do you think is more likely or happens more often?

        A) Authentic Miracles

        B) Scholars or Experts are mistaken about something in their particular field
        Scholars and experts are mistaken in their field if they are the 99% of scientists who endorse the Theory of Evolution, but if they are Christian scholars of an ancient middle-eastern holy book, promoting the reanimation of first century dead human flesh, their majority opinion should not be questioned.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Given the number of people who consider it impossible for scholars to be mistaken: it would almost be reasonable to class "scholars being mistaken" as a subset of miracles.

          Scholars being mistaken would create difficulty in answering: scholars or experts now - depending on the precise definition, would I think be more likely than miracles. Assuming of course, you stipulate that the current status of churches does not change.
          You are twisting yourself into a pretzel, Tabby, to prop up this supernatural belief system.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            And Calvinists believe that every single saved Christian is a miracle.

            I think one of the reasons Gary isn't trying too hard here is because he thinks that theism in general (and Christianity in particular) is such patent nonsense that it shouldn't take much effort to expose it for what it is.
            Find me one Calvinist who believes that faith healers in Pentecostal churches are truly casting out demons and healing people of cancer and the inability to walk, all with one little prayer and a push of his hand on their foreheads.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
              I agree. It looks like most of what Gary has said has not been about us but been about himself. For instance, this idea of clinging to our faith like a security blanket? Sorry. Doesn't apply. We're not all like that. I was just browsing the thread yesterday and I saw him say something about how this must be painful for us. I couldn't believe it. I nearly burst out laughing. There has been nothing painful about this.

              Gary just encountered a bunch of atheists who knew something that he'd never thought about and didn't know what to say.

              Now he's encountered a bunch of Christians who know something he's never thought much about and this time ego is getting in the way.
              Nick, I know you are very proud of your status as a "budding apologist" but you have presented NOTHING new here other than your Honor-Shame argument which is nothing more than a generalization. Generalizations do not apply to EVERYONE in a culture, only to the majority. The fact that a few uneducated peasants fall for a shameful belief...especially after their leader had been preaching the shameful belief for three years prior to his death...is not surprising to anyone who looks at the evidence with an unbiased review. You are desperately searching for evidence to support your superstition instead of simply looking at the evidence.

              Comment


              • Here is a miracle claim from Keener's book:

                A recent Floridian counterpart involves renowned heart surgeon Chauncey Crandall praying in Jesus’ name for non-Christian patient Jeff Markin on October 20, 2006 in a West Palm Beach Hospital to come back to life after all other methods to revive him had repeatedly failed. His face, toes, and fingers were already turning black (see p. 577, nn. 467-68 for on-line documentation, both Christian and secular).

                "His face, toes, and fingers were already turning BLACK."

                Wow!!!

                As a physician I have seen plenty of dead bodies and I can assure you that dead bodies do not begin turning "black" at anytime in the first 24 hours after death, and I would say probably not for several days. Ever seen road kill along the road? Was any part of the dead carcass black when you found it? If so, I will bet that most of the carcass was by then unrecognizable. In order for a human body to have been turning black, the body would have had to have already gone through most of the stages of decomposition, including massive bloating and decomposition of the internal organs. And yet this case is "documented"??? Are we to believe that such a case was "documented" but it wasn't important enough to make it into the headlines of every newspaper around the world???

                Wake up, folks. This is nothing but hysterical, Pentecostal nonsense.

                This is a preposterous, ignorant claim, and those of you with a college education should hang your heads in shame for promoting this nonsense.
                Last edited by Gary; 08-24-2015, 11:48 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by William View Post
                  yeah, I understand that there is even disagreement among critical Scholars regarding the actual Resurrection of Jesus.
                  I don't know of any critical scholars that say anything about the historicity of the actual resurrection of Jesus in any of their academic work. What disagreements are you referring to here?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                    Here is a miracle claim from Keener's book:

                    A recent Floridian counterpart involves renowned heart surgeon Chauncey Crandall praying in Jesus’ name for non-Christian patient Jeff Markin on October 20, 2006 in a West Palm Beach Hospital to come back to life after all other methods to revive him had repeatedly failed. His face, toes, and fingers were already turning black (see p. 577, nn. 467-68 for on-line documentation, both Christian and secular).

                    "His face, toes, and fingers were already turning BLACK."

                    Wow!!!

                    As a physician I have seen plenty of dead bodies and I can assure you that dead bodies do not begin turning "black" at anytime in the first 24 hours after death, and I would say probably not for several days. Ever seen road kill along the road? Was any part of the dead carcass black when you found it? If so, I will bet that most of the carcass was by then unrecognizable. In order for a human body to have been turning black, the body would have had to have already gone through most of the stages of decomposition, including massive bloating and decomposition of the internal organs. And yet this case is "documented"??? Are we to believe that such a case was "documented" but it wasn't important enough to make it into the headlines of every newspaper around the world???

                    Wake up, folks. This is nothing but hysterical, Pentecostal nonsense.

                    This is a preposterous, ignorant claim, and those of you with a college education should hang your heads in shame for promoting this nonsense.
                    Wait, you're a certified physician and you didn't even think for a second that he could be talking about cyanosis, or livor mortis/hypostasis?

                    I want to facepalm so hard right now.
                    Last edited by JonathanL; 08-24-2015, 12:11 PM.
                    ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                      Find me one Calvinist who believes that faith healers in Pentecostal churches are truly casting out demons and healing people of cancer and the inability to walk, all with one little prayer and a push of his hand on their foreheads.
                      Oh look, moving goalposts!
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        Wait, you're a certified physician and you didn't even think for a second that he could be talking about cyanosis, or livor mortis/hypostasis?

                        I want to facepalm so hard right now.
                        According to the footnotes,

                        Source: Miracles by Craig Keener, pg. 557

                        471. When cyanosis sets in, little hope exists of reviving a patient (Crandall, Raising, 3, noting also his fixed, dilated pupils).

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                          As a physician I have seen plenty of dead bodies
                          You see a lot of dead bodies in your specialization do you? What do you specialize in?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            Wait, you're a certified physician and you didn't even think for a second that he could be talking about cyanosis, or livor mortis/hypostasis?

                            I want to facepalm so hard right now.
                            You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                              According to the footnotes,

                              Source: Miracles by Craig Keener, pg. 557

                              471. When cyanosis sets in, little hope exists of reviving a patient (Crandall, Raising, 3, noting also his fixed, dilated pupils).

                              © Copyright Original Source

                              cy·a·no·sis


                              /ˌsīəˈnōsəs/


                              noun
                              Medicine

                              noun: cyanosis

                              a bluish discoloration of the skin resulting from poor circulation or inadequate oxygenation of the blood.

                              Any physician who describes a patient's face as turning "black" is not familiar with cyanosis. This is nonsense. All you non-physicians can try to outwit me but I suggest you ask your own doctor if the face of a recently deceased body would turn "black" within 24 hours of death.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                                You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
                                I'm calling bulldung on your claim of being a certified physician.

                                Source: wiki article on livor mortis

                                Livor mortis (Latin: livor—"bluish color," mortis—"of death"), postmortem lividity (Latin: postmortem—"after death", lividity—"black and blue"), hypostasis (Greek: hypo, meaning "under, beneath"; stasis, meaning "a standing"[1][2]) or suggillation, is one of the signs of death. Livor mortis is a settling of the blood in the lower (dependent) portion of the body, causing a purplish red discoloration of the skin. When the heart stops functioning and is no longer agitating the blood, heavy red blood cells sink through the serum by action of gravity.

                                Livor mortis starts twenty minutes to three hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in four to five hours.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livor_mortis

                                My emphasis.
                                ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X