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  • Originally posted by Gary View Post
    1. We have agreed that there are alternative explanations to the early Christian belief in the bodily resurrection of Jesus. We disagree as to which explanation best explains the evidence, but both sides acknowledge that skeptics cannot state as fact that the bodily Resurrection of Jesus did not happen, and Christians cannot state that the evidence proves the Resurrection is historical fact. The Resurrection remains an alleged historical event.
    Which Christians here have explicitly agreed that there are plausible alternative explanations for the cumulative evidence of the resurrection other than the actual bodily resurrection of Jesus?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      ったく。 Seems that some people can't tell the difference between "all do not" and "not all do".
      (click the pic to enlarge)
      [ATTACH=CONFIG]9028[/ATTACH]

      SEPPA
      This is not the paragraph I was quoting. Please look at this link from Amazon, which provides the introduction to Keener's book "Miracles", look at page 3 of the Introduction, the second paragraph, the third sentence:

      http://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Credi...der_0801039525

      It states the exact sentence that I quoted above.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        ったく。 Seems that some people can't tell the difference between "all do not" and "not all do".
        (click the pic to enlarge)
        [ATTACH=CONFIG]9028[/ATTACH]

        SEPPA
        If you read carefully what Keener is saying in this passage, it is this: One cannot prove that miracles are impossible. I have agreed with this statement multiple times. My argument is that skeptics cannot prove that miracles do not happen and theists cannot prove that miracles do happen. The belief or non-belief in miracles is based on each person's individual opinion regarding probabilities.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Gary View Post
          "Pentecostal IN NATURE"

          You need to learn to read. How many Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, EOC, or Episcopalian churches in the US and Europe practice healings and exorcisms?
          Exorcisms are a part of every single Orthodox baptism. Oil is also consecrated for healing at least once a year in most parishes (traditionally on the Wednesday before Easter), and there are IIRC three myrrh-streaming icons in the US (I've seen two of them multiple times) which have been associated with healings.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gary View Post
            No, Tabby. You have missed the entire point of our discussion: We skeptics are not trying to convince Christians that this miracle or any other miracle did not happen. We are only trying to show you that there are always alternative explanations, and, that you cannot prove as absolute fact that this particular event was a miracle or that any other odd, rare event is a miracle. You can believe it, but you can't prove it.

            How do you know this story is 100% accurate? How do you know that some of the details haven't been exaggerated, embellished or even fabricated? You don't. And that is our point. It is a story that has been passed around from one person to another, and when stories are passed around details can be changed.

            Once again: Skeptics cannot prove that miracles do not happen, and, believers cannot prove that they do. Each one of us must evaluate the claim and determine for ourselves if there is a more naturalistic explanation of the facts. Believers have a much lower threshold for believing that a miracle has occurred, and we skeptics believe Christians have this low threshold due to the fact that they so very much want to believe a miracle has happened.
            I have stated that it is possible - beyond all possible doubt - to know whether a claim of a supernatural occurrence is true. All it takes is for the person making the claim to be the one who performed the action. The phone conversation between the Christian and his atheist friend demonstrated the point - the Christian would know beyond doubt whether any subterfuge was involved. You hand waved the example away with a wholly irrelevant "analogy". Nor does that "analogy" address the secondary issue of why the atheist would have paid any heed to what he was told.

            Originally posted by Keener
            "Supernatural causation is not the only possible explanation behind all the accounts, but it is a more compelling hypothesis in some cases than in others."
            Even when other comments by Keener show that this does not mean "all accounts have or could have natural explanations" you insist that the statement means the latter.

            Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence
            The claim that every report of supernatural activity is ipso facto explicable by natural phenomena is itself an extraordinary claim - the evidence that you have provided in support of that claim doesn't even reach the standard of being ordinary.
            Last edited by tabibito; 08-23-2015, 05:25 PM.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              I have stated that it is possible - beyond all possible doubt - to know whether a claim of a supernatural occurrence is true. All it takes is for the person making the claim to be the one who performed the action. The phone conversation between the Christian and his atheist friend demonstrated the point - the Christian would know beyond doubt whether any subterfuge was involved. You hand waved the example away with a wholly irrelevant "analogy". Nor does that "analogy" address the secondary issue of why the atheist would have paid any heed to what he was told.

              Even when other comments by Keener show that this does not mean "all accounts have or could have natural explanations" you insist that the statement means the latter.

              The claim that every report of supernatural activity is ipso facto explicable by natural phenomena is itself an extraordinary claim - the evidence that you have provided in support of that claim doesn't even reach the standard of being ordinary.
              "Supernatural causation is not the only possible explanation behind all the accounts..."

              The statement speaks for itself. "All" means 'every last one without any exceptions' last time I checked a dictionary.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                "Supernatural causation is not the only possible explanation behind all the accounts..."

                The statement speaks for itself. "All" means 'every last one without any exceptions' last time I checked a dictionary.
                It's inconceivable to me that someone with this sort of reading comprehension was able to obtain Board Certification. Please tell me where your practice is so that I might avoid it like the plague.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  It's inconceivable to me that someone with this sort of reading comprehension was able to obtain Board Certification. Please tell me where your practice is so that I might avoid it like the plague.
                  "Supernatural causation is not the only possible explanation behind all the accounts..."

                  What does this statement say in simple English: A miracle or other divine act is not the only possible explanation for ALL/EVERY/EACH account in this book. In other words, there are alternative, natural explanations for each miracle claim. Please show me any statement in the introduction to Keener's book where he claims that the miracle claims recorded in his book are PROOF that miracles do occur, and not simply proof that many people the world over BELIEVE that they occur.

                  Your obvious hatred of me has clouded your reasoning and English language comprehension.
                  Last edited by Gary; 08-23-2015, 07:35 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Supernatural causation Illness is not the only possible explanation behind all the accounts absenteeism.

                    And that sentence has two clauses, just to make sure there is no mistake.
                    "Supernatural causation is not the only possible explanation behind all the accounts, and it is a more compelling hypothesis in some cases than in others."

                    Way to go - cite half a sentence out of context (not only in relation to the body of the text, but also with regard to the very sentence in which it appears), assign it an arbitrary meaning - claim you have a point. You missed your calling - your skills are better employed in service as some cult's theologian.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Supernatural causation Illness is not the only possible explanation behind all the accounts absenteeism.

                      And that sentence has two clauses, just to make sure there is no mistake.
                      "Supernatural causation is not the only possible explanation behind all the accounts, and it is a more compelling hypothesis in some cases than in others."

                      Way to go - cite half a sentence out of context (not only in relation to the body of the text, but also with regard to the very sentence in which it appears), assign it an arbitrary meaning - claim you have a point. You missed your calling - your skills are better employed in service as some cult's theologian.
                      I did quote the entire sentence originally. What does the second part say: That a supernatural explanation (a miracle) is a more compelling hypothesis (possible explanation) in some cases than in others.

                      I don't see any contradiction to what I have said. Keener is not claiming that the miracle claims in his book are PROOF of miracles, only proof that many thousands of people, all over the world, BELIEVE that miracles have happened. Big difference.
                      Last edited by Gary; 08-23-2015, 10:14 PM.

                      Comment


                      • [QUOTE=Gary;234045]I did quote the entire sentence originally. What does the second part say: That a supernatural explanation (a miracle) is a more compelling hypothesis (possible explanation) in some cases than in others.

                        I don't see any contradiction to what I have said. Keener is not claiming that the miracle claims in his book are PROOF of miracles, only proof that many thousands of people, all over the world, BELIEVE that miracles have happened. Big difference.[/QUOT

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          Supernatural causation Illness is not the only possible explanation behind all the accounts absenteeism.

                          And that sentence has two clauses, just to make sure there is no mistake.
                          "Supernatural causation is not the only possible explanation behind all the accounts, and it is a more compelling hypothesis in some cases than in others."

                          Way to go - cite half a sentence out of context (not only in relation to the body of the text, but also with regard to the very sentence in which it appears), assign it an arbitrary meaning - claim you have a point. You missed your calling - your skills are better employed in service as some cult's theologian.
                          I wish it were possible to copy and paste Keener's entire introduction so that everyone could read it for themselves, but Amazon doesn't allow this. Here are a few excerpts from a review by one prominent Christian theologian of Keener's book:

                          ...Keener states his work’s purposes on page 1: “The book’s primary thesis is simply that eyewitnesses do offer miracle claims, a thesis simple enough but one sometimes neglected when some scholars approach the accounts in the Gospels. The secondary thesis is that supernatural explanations, while not suitable in every case, should be welcome on the scholarly table along with other explanations often discussed.” But the reader is rewarded with far more than an articulation and defense of these two theses. Early on, Keener succinctly summarizes previous key research on New Testament miracles, and compares and contrasts them with other accounts of the apparently miraculous from the ancient Mediterranean world, noting that almost all of the closest parallels emerge no earlier than the third century A.D.; making impossible widespread borrowing by Christians from pagan or Jewish sources (except the Old Testament). Unlike many evangelical scholars, however, Keener finds no reason for denying the historicity of all non-Christian miracle stories, ancient or modern, since throughout Scripture and history God works through whomever he wants. The demonic world can also produce certain kinds of miracles, and still others may be of human manufacture. Keener stresses, contra many, that the ancients were frequently skeptical of miraculous claims, distinguished between more and less plausible accounts, and certainly knew enough “science” to recognize that events like instantaneous healings of medically intractable diseases, resurrections of the dead, walking on water, and the like, could not and did not normally happen.

                          Keener gives readers unfamiliar with eighteenth-century Scottish philosopher David Hume’s classic arguments against miracles an introduction to Hume’s work and the history of reaction to and interaction with it. Probably the most famous and lasting part of Hume’s case is that one cannot accept accounts of something happening for which there is no known analogy in human experience and that it is always more probable that eyewitness claims to have experienced something miraculous are mistaken than that they are accurate. The burden of Keener’s work is to show that while it is understandable that someone in Scotland in the 1700s might be unfamiliar with credible eyewitness accounts of miracles, anyone who makes such a claim today can do so only by overlooking the experiences of more than 200,000,000 people on our planet! This number comes from a Pew Forum, ten-country survey of Pentecostal and charismatic church experience undertaken in 2006, and extrapolations based on it.

                          ...The largest section of Keener’s work then proceeds to itemize a few hundred of the most carefully documented, medically and scientifically inexplicable miracles. Most of them are healings that include not a few resurrections from the dead. Keener discusses at length the stringent criteria he employed to eliminate numerous other possible accounts he could have included even though he believes they are most likely true. He describes his travels to dozens of countries in all major parts of the world, his interviews, and what he personally witnessed. He limits his second-hand accounts to testimonies from people of the highest integrity and character, many of whom are longtime personal friends or acquaintances. After surveying a wide variety of alleged, well documented miracles (especially healings) throughout church history; the bulk of his treatment proceeds, according to sections of the world, to describe those he has personally investigated.

                          Craig Blomberg, Ph.D.
                          Distinguished Professor of New Testament
                          Denver Seminary
                          January 2012

                          Copied from: http://www.denverseminary.edu/articl...ment-accounts/

                          Gary: Holy Miracles, Batman! Two hundred million miracles have happened in Pentecostal and charismatic churches in ten countries according to a Pew Forum but the Virgin Mary, with the assistance of her son, Jesus, has only accomplished SIXTY-SIX miracles among the millions of very devout, faithful, sincere Christians who have dragged their disease-riddled bodies to Lourdes every year, for over 100 years, to be healed. There is only one conclusion: Jesus hates Catholics and loves those charismatics!

                          And you gotta love this claim: "The largest section of Keener’s work then proceeds to itemize a few hundred of the most carefully documented, medically and scientifically inexplicable miracles. Most of them are healings that include not a few resurrections from the dead."

                          Holy Walking/Talking Dead Corpses, Batman! Keener has documented "not a few" (does that mean "many"??) resurrections from the dead??? Wow! Call a national medical conference. Prayers by Christians are raising people from the dead! Now, unfortunately, this is only occurring in the backwaters of rural China where no one has a video recorder or I phone to document these "resurrections" but "MANY" of them are happening anyway!

                          Good grief folks. I can understand the charismatics and even Catholics and EOC on this site falling for this nonsense, but isn't there at least one level-headed Calvinist on TW who will agree with me that this is all a load of horse sh....horse nonsense?
                          Last edited by Gary; 08-24-2015, 12:52 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                            I wish it were possible to copy and paste Keener's entire introduction so that everyone could read it for themselves, but Amazon doesn't allow this. Here are a few excerpts from a review by one prominent Christian theologian of Keener's book:

                            ...Keener states his work’s purposes on page 1: “The book’s primary thesis is simply that eyewitnesses do offer miracle claims, a thesis simple enough but one sometimes neglected when some scholars approach the accounts in the Gospels. The secondary thesis is that supernatural explanations, while not suitable in every case, should be welcome on the scholarly table along with other explanations often discussed.” But the reader is rewarded with far more than an articulation and defense of these two theses.
                            I think I recall reading somewhere in the passages available through Google Books, that Keener actually swung away from this line part way through his investigations, once he was satisfied that there might be something to miracle claims. Could be that I am mistaken though.
                            Early on, Keener succinctly summarizes previous key research on New Testament miracles, and compares and contrasts them with other accounts of the apparently miraculous from the ancient Mediterranean world, noting that almost all of the closest parallels emerge no earlier than the third century A.D.; making impossible widespread borrowing by Christians from pagan or Jewish sources (except the Old Testament). Unlike many evangelical scholars, however, Keener finds no reason for denying the historicity of all non-Christian miracle stories, ancient or modern, since throughout Scripture and history God works through whomever he wants. The demonic world can also produce certain kinds of miracles, and still others may be of human manufacture. Keener stresses, contra many, that the ancients were frequently skeptical of miraculous claims, distinguished between more and less plausible accounts, and certainly knew enough “science” to recognize that events like instantaneous healings of medically intractable diseases, resurrections of the dead, walking on water, and the like, could not and did not normally happen.
                            Contra many? The ancients were fully aware that sans divine intervention, these things could not happen. Nor were they wont to accept any and every claim of supernatural causes without some reason to believe it. Even the Old Testament itself records one such circumstance.

                            Keener gives readers unfamiliar with eighteenth-century Scottish philosopher David Hume’s classic arguments against miracles an introduction to Hume’s work and the history of reaction to and interaction with it. Probably the most famous and lasting part of Hume’s case is that one cannot accept accounts of something happening for which there is no known analogy in human experience and that it is always more probable that eyewitness claims to have experienced something miraculous are mistaken than that they are accurate.
                            I'll buy "more probable" - no question about it.
                            The burden of Keener’s work is to show that while it is understandable that someone in Scotland in the 1700s might be unfamiliar with credible eyewitness accounts of miracles, anyone who makes such a claim today can do so only by overlooking the experiences of more than 200,000,000 people on our planet! This number comes from a Pew Forum, ten-country survey of Pentecostal and charismatic church experience undertaken in 2006, and extrapolations based on it.

                            ...The largest section of Keener’s work then proceeds to itemize a few hundred of the most carefully documented, medically and scientifically inexplicable miracles. Most of them are healings that include not a few resurrections from the dead. Keener discusses at length the stringent criteria he employed to eliminate numerous other possible accounts he could have included even though he believes they are most likely true. He describes his travels to dozens of countries in all major parts of the world, his interviews, and what he personally witnessed. He limits his second-hand accounts to testimonies from people of the highest integrity and character, many of whom are longtime personal friends or acquaintances. After surveying a wide variety of alleged, well documented miracles (especially healings) throughout church history; the bulk of his treatment proceeds, according to sections of the world, to describe those he has personally investigated.

                            Craig Blomberg, Ph.D.
                            Distinguished Professor of New Testament
                            Denver Seminary
                            January 2012

                            Copied from: http://www.denverseminary.edu/articl...ment-accounts/

                            Gary: Holy Miracles, Batman! Two hundred million miracles have happened in Pentecostal and charismatic churches in ten countries according to a Pew Forum but the Virgin Mary, with the assistance of her son, Jesus, has only accomplished SIXTY-SIX miracles among the millions of very devout, faithful, sincere Christians who have dragged their disease-riddled bodies to Lourdes every year, for over 100 years, to be healed. There is only one conclusion: Jesus hates Catholics and loves those charismatics!
                            It seems that you have failed to distinguish between the differences in methodology. Rome's investigation lists those events that Rome considers proven. Keener's investigation lists those events that he considers should not be regarded as disproven. Of course his list is more extensive than Rome's - and by orders of magnitude.

                            And you gotta love this claim: "The largest section of Keener’s work then proceeds to itemize a few hundred of the most carefully documented, medically and scientifically inexplicable miracles. Most of them are healings that include not a few resurrections from the dead."

                            Holy Walking/Talking Dead Corpses, Batman! Keener has documented "not a few" (does that mean "many"??) resurrections from the dead??? Wow! Call a national medical conference. Prayers by Christians are raising people from the dead! Now, unfortunately, this is only occurring in the backwaters of rural China where no one has a video recorder or I phone to document these "resurrections" but "MANY" of them are happening anyway!
                            I've heard one story of a person being raised from the dead - and not in a backwater Chinese district, but in a reasonably civilised city. I have also heard a story about a man who was scheduled for surgery on the following day and who was found to be healed come morning. Now - I feel reasonably assured that the people who told me these stories genuinely believed them. I also find them normally level headed and trustworthy. That doesn't mean I believe the stories, but it does mean I will suspend disbelief pending further information - though I am not pursuing an investigation.

                            Good grief folks. I can understand the charismatics and even Catholics and EOC on this site falling for this nonsense, but isn't there at least one level-headed Calvinist on TW who will agree with me that this is all a load of horse sh....horse nonsense?
                            Ah - the old "divide and conquer trick." When all else fails, start a ruckus.
                            Last edited by tabibito; 08-24-2015, 03:22 AM.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                              I did quote the entire sentence originally. What does the second part say: That a supernatural explanation (a miracle) is a more compelling hypothesis (possible explanation) in some cases than in others.
                              So what excuse do you advance for failing to understand that Keener was saying, "Not all can" instead of the interpretation "None can" that you so stridently ascribed to it.

                              I don't see any contradiction to what I have said. Keener is not claiming that the miracle claims in his book are PROOF of miracles, only proof that many thousands of people, all over the world, BELIEVE that miracles have happened. Big difference.
                              I don't see how you got that one either: Keener clearly states that the least unlikely reports get mentioned in Chapter 12.

                              So - now that we have discussed the contents of a book that we neither one have read enough of to make informed comment -
                              perhaps you could address the matter of the Christian's remarks to his atheist friend during a phone call. Specifically addressing the issue that the Christian knows that nothing was faked, and the Atheist's compliance with the Christian's advice.
                              Last edited by tabibito; 08-24-2015, 03:32 AM.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Nick and Others,

                                Which do you think is more likely or happens more often?

                                A) Authentic Miracles

                                B) Scholars or Experts are mistaken about something in their particular field

                                Comment

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