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Commentary thread - Hakeem vs. Boxing Pythagoras - did Jesus die on the cross?

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  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Sparko question "Whether Jesus was resurrected or never died, how do you explain the disciples not recognizing him?" is answered by the fact that they expected him to dead in the grave because they heard from sources that Jesus died. All their source in this regard is from other sources because Mark 14:50 says " they all fled and foresook him" when Jesus was arrested.

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  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
    Desert Berean writing "Hakeem does raise a fresh point ... the failure to recognize Jesus on the road to Emmaus...but ignores that those two disciples ran to the the others and said that Jesus is indeed risen" is not true because I agree that Jesus was risen but not resurrected because Jesus did not die at all.

    Rise and resurrection are not necessarily the same.
    Whether Jesus was resurrected or never died, how do you explain the disciples not recognizing him?

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Desert Berean writing "Hakeem does raise a fresh point ... the failure to recognize Jesus on the road to Emmaus...but ignores that those two disciples ran to the the others and said that Jesus is indeed risen" is not true because I agree that Jesus was risen but not resurrected because Jesus did not die at all.

    Rise and resurrection are not necessarily the same.

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    One Bad Pig writing "your conundrum fails if Jesus wasn't speaking literally in Mt. 13:43" is refuted by Rev 1:16 which describes Jesus in heaven as follows:

    "His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance."

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  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Desert Berean writing " It even says in Mark that Pilate sent for the centurion to confirm that Jesus was dead. Is the centurion going to lie to the one who could have him punished for lying to him?" is answered in Mark 15:45 that says" after he confirmed, Pilate gave his body:

    Nowhere Mark mentions that he confirmed he was dead. All Mark 15:45 says is "after he confirmed." What he confirmed is unmentioned by the Centurion.

    The answer to your question "And what about the Jews asking him for a guard on the tomb? Why didn't he say, "Don't be silly" if he didn't believe Jesus was dead?" is that Jews asked for a guard after Jesus tomb was unguarded for a day as Mathhew 27:62 says " The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate."

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  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Hi Chrawnus, all my arguments for my case are from the Bible.

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  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Cerebrum123 writing "He's back, and still can't process that Pilate being surprised that Jesus died so early would not necessarily mean that Jesus did not die as stated" is not true. Had Jesus been dead according to Pilate, there would have not been a need for confirmation by the centurion as per Mark 15:45. The truth is Pilate doubted Jesus death as in Mark 15:44, so Pilate requested for confirmation and after confirmation, Jesus body was given.


    Cerebrum123 writing "He also brings back the "lingering death" comment" is because it is true* that crucifxion is so that took days to kill a person. This is admitted by Christian commentaries on Mark 15:44 at biblehub.com.* Such slow lingering death was the driver behind Pilate surprise to hear that Jesus was dead.

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  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Mossrose writing " The executioners had crucified thousands of people by the time of Jesus' death. They certainly weren't too stupid to not recognize a dead person when they saw one, and that is without the medical knowledge we boast of now" is refuted by the fact that after all trial Jesus received by the Roman Soldiers who were experts in killing, Pilate was surprised to hear Jesus died according to Mark 15:44 because according to Christian Commentaries at biblehub.com on Mark 15:44 that is common for the victim of crucifixion to live upto days.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
    Desert Berean saying "Jesus proved he was in a resurrected body by eating, drinking, and making at least one of the apostles touch his wounds" is not true unless proven in line with the conditions of the resurrected body in the Bible. For example, had Jesus been dead and resurrected, the disciples on the way to Emmaus should have recognised Jesus easily as they were walking, talking and eating with Jesus because the resurrected will be in glory as per 1 Corinthians 15:43 that will shine like the sun as Matthew 13:43 says "the righteous shall shine like the sun in their Father kingdom"
    The hostile crowds in Nazareth should have been able to throw Jesus over a cliff, too, but Jesus was able to walk away. Maybe they forgot what he looked like? Also, your conundrum fails if Jesus wasn't speaking literally in Mt. 13:43.

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Desert Berean saying "Jesus proved he was in a resurrected body by eating, drinking, and making at least one of the apostles touch his wounds" is not true unless proven in line with the conditions of the resurrected body in the Bible. For example, had Jesus been dead and resurrected, the disciples on the way to Emmaus should have recognised Jesus easily as they were walking, talking and eating with Jesus because the resurrected will be in glory as per 1 Corinthians 15:43 that will shine like the sun as Matthew 13:43 says "the righteous shall shine like the sun in their Father kingdom"

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Hi all,

    As I will be trying to respond to your comments and your queries, please feel free to ask.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill the Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Crucifixion. The Baha'i view

    Since we had some discussions on the debate forum here about the crucifixion I decided to share an excerpt from a larger book which cites Abdul-Baha interpreting Surih 4 and verse 156 of the Quran, this may not be well known to many Baha'is. It is an excerpt from Star of the West:

    The verse to which the author refers is 4:156 and reads as follows:


    "And for their saying, 'Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, an Apostle of God'. Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness... No sure knowledge had they about him, but followed only an opinion, and they did not really slay him, but God took him up to Himself."

    'Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation of the verse is provided in a Tablet published in Star of the West, vol. 2, no. 7, p. 13, in which He has written:

    "In regard to the verse, which is revealed in the Koran, that His Highness, Christ, was not killed and was not crucified, by this is meant the Reality of Christ. Although they crucified this elemental body, yet the merciful reality and the heavenly existence remain eternal and undying, and it was protected from the oppression and persecution of the enemies, for Christ is eternal and Everlasting. How can He die? This death and crucifixion was imposed on the physical body of Christ, and not upon the Spirit of Christ"
    tumblr_ltlorwUSSl1qfqcmfo1_400.gif

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  • DesertBerean
    replied
    ...and yet Jesus proved he was in a resurrected body by eating, drinking, and making at least one of the apostles touch his wounds.

    Leave a comment:


  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Crucifixion. The Baha'i view

    Since we had some discussions on the debate forum here about the crucifixion I decided to share an excerpt from a larger book which cites Abdul-Baha interpreting Surih 4 and verse 156 of the Quran, this may not be well known to many Baha'is. It is an excerpt from Star of the West:

    The verse to which the author refers is 4:156 and reads as follows:


    "And for their saying, 'Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, an Apostle of God'. Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness... No sure knowledge had they about him, but followed only an opinion, and they did not really slay him, but God took him up to Himself."

    'Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation of the verse is provided in a Tablet published in Star of the West, vol. 2, no. 7, p. 13, in which He has written:

    "In regard to the verse, which is revealed in the Koran, that His Highness, Christ, was not killed and was not crucified, by this is meant the Reality of Christ. Although they crucified this elemental body, yet the merciful reality and the heavenly existence remain eternal and undying, and it was protected from the oppression and persecution of the enemies, for Christ is eternal and Everlasting. How can He die? This death and crucifixion was imposed on the physical body of Christ, and not upon the Spirit of Christ"

    Leave a comment:


  • 37818
    replied
    Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
    Yes, well, it makes a heckuva lot more sense to me if I don't assume that Jesus is God. But if you can reconcile all that in your own mind, more power to you. I'm not about to argue against it.
    That is fine. Jesus is a man. All men are sinful before God. "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." -- Ecclesiastes 7:20. So when He was addressed as "good teacher" He says to that young rich man, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." -- Mark 10:18.

    You see, unless this man Jesus was also God, being the Son of God, He would be a sinner being a man. [John 5:18. John 8:24. 1 John 3:5. 2 John 9.]

    Leave a comment:

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