Commentary thread - Hakeem vs. Boxing Pythagoras - did Jesus die on the cross?

[Bill the Cat]

Bill the Cat writing " Jesus "shining" has nothing to do with being resurrected. Moses "shone", as did Jesus at the mount of transfiguration. It has to do with being in proximity to the shekinah glory of God" is wrong because the dead will be raised in glory according 1 Corinthians 15:43. The resurrected* in the heaven will be* shinning like Daniel says, Daniel 12:3, the righteous shall shine as the stars and Matthew 13:43 and they shall shine like the sun. This is confirmed by Revelation 1:16 " His (Jesus) face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance."

The above is in line with Christian commantries on 1 Corinthians 15:43 at biblehub.com

Uh, we will be near the shekina glory in heaven, sir. What I said was perfectly in line with scripture.

[Same Hakeem]

Bill the Cat writing " Jesus "shining" has nothing to do with being resurrected. Moses "shone", as did Jesus at the mount of transfiguration. It has to do with being in proximity to the shekinah glory of God" is wrong because the dead will be raised in glory according 1 Corinthians 15:43. The resurrected* in the heaven will be* shinning like Daniel says, Daniel 12:3, the righteous shall shine as the stars and Matthew 13:43 and they shall shine like the sun. This is confirmed by Revelation 1:16 " His (Jesus) face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance."

The above is in line with Christian commantries on 1 Corinthians 15:43 at biblehub.com

[Same Hakeem]

Thanks Sparko. Now I understand your questions.

The answer to Sparko questions below lies in the fact the disciples thought he should be dead in the tomb for three days and three nights because they heard from other sources that he died on the cross and was laid in tomb. All their source of what happened to him is what they heard from others because Mark 14:50 says "they ALL have fled and foresook him" when Jesus was arrested.

The following questions are Sparko quedtions;

Scenario 1: Disciples on the road think Jesus died, but he didn't. They don't recognize him because?

Scenario 2: Disciples on the road think Jesus died, and he did but was resurrected. They don't recognize him because?

[Bill the Cat]

Bill the Cat writing " Exactly. That's why Jesus wasn't "shining" with the Disciples. He had not ascended and put on incorruptibility yet" is not true because "the dead will be raised imperishable" according to 1 Corinthians 15:52.

Jesus "shining" has nothing to do with being resurrected. Moses "shone", as did Jesus at the mount of transfiguration. It has to do with being in proximity to the shekinah glory of God.

[Same Hakeem]

Bill the Cat writing " Exactly. That's why Jesus wasn't "shining" with the Disciples. He had not ascended and put on incorruptibility yet" is not true because "the dead will be raised imperishable" according to 1 Corinthians 15:52.

[Same Hakeem]

Sparko asking " If they would have recognized him if he was resurrected after they thought he was dead, then why would they not recognize him if he didn't die? " is the most plausible answer is that Jesus was in disguise in public* in light of the following two fact that (1) his disciples were not able to know it was Jesus who was talking, walking, eating and spending night with them in Luke 24 and (2) Jesus never showed himself once to one of his alleged killers of the Jews and Romans when Jesus should have appeared to these sinners because Jesus said in Mark 2:17 "I come not to the righteous but to the sinner"

I donot understand your other two questions.

[Sparko]

Thanks Sparko for your comments and queries.

Sparko writing "I think Jesus' appearance had changed. Or perhaps those disciples didn't actually know what he looked like up close?" is not true biblically for the reasons below;

1. Jesus appearance did not change because Jesus to the disciples in Luke 24:39 post trial "behold my hands and my feet IT IS I MYSELF handle me and see for a spirit has no flesh and bones as you see me have". Jesus saying "it is I myself handle me and see" proves he was same Jesus they were walking, talking, eating and spending night with Jesus on the way to Emmaus though they did not recognise him.

2. Had Jesus been dead and resurrected, the disciples would have recognised Jesus because (a) Jesus said in Matthew "the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father" and (b) they were walking, talking, eating and spending night with Jesus on the way to Emmaus though they did not recognise him.

The answer to your question "And how does this even factor into your argument? If he WERE dead and resurrected, how would it be different in them recognizing him than if he really didn't die but they thought he did and they saw him? The outcome would be the same" is in item# 1 and 2 above.

If they would have recognized him if he was resurrected after they thought he was dead, then why would they not recognize him if he didn't die? Your argument doesn't make sense.

Answer these two scenarios and show why they would be different:

Scenario 1: Disciples on the road think Jesus died, but he didn't. They don't recognize him because?

Scenario 2: Disciples on the road think Jesus died, and he did but was resurrected. They don't recognize him because?

[Bill the Cat]

Yes indeed we will be changed according to 1 corinthians 15:51

Exactly. That's why Jesus wasn't "shining" with the Disciples. He had not ascended and put on incorruptibility yet.

[Same Hakeem]

AND changed. See 1 Cor 15:51-53

Yes indeed we will be changed according to 1 corinthians 15:51

[Bill the Cat]

Thanks Bill the Cat for asking.

The answer to your question "You do realize that going to heaven changes the body, right?" is yes because and in heaven will be the resurrected.

AND changed. See 1 Cor 15:51-53

[Same Hakeem]

Thanks Sparko for your comments and queries.

Sparko writing "I think Jesus' appearance had changed. Or perhaps those disciples didn't actually know what he looked like up close?" is not true biblically for the reasons below;

1. Jesus appearance did not change because Jesus to the disciples in Luke 24:39 post trial "behold my hands and my feet IT IS I MYSELF handle me and see for a spirit has no flesh and bones as you see me have". Jesus saying "it is I myself handle me and see" proves he was same Jesus they were walking, talking, eating and spending night with Jesus on the way to Emmaus though they did not recognise him.

2. Had Jesus been dead and resurrected, the disciples would have recognised Jesus because (a) Jesus said in Matthew "the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father" and (b) they were walking, talking, eating and spending night with Jesus on the way to Emmaus though they did not recognise him.

The answer to your question "And how does this even factor into your argument? If he WERE dead and resurrected, how would it be different in them recognizing him than if he really didn't die but they thought he did and they saw him? The outcome would be the same" is in item# 1 and 2 above.

[Sparko]

Sparko question "Whether Jesus was resurrected or never died, how do you explain the disciples not recognizing him?" is answered by the fact that they expected him to dead in the grave because they heard from sources that Jesus died. All their source in this regard is from other sources because Mark 14:50 says " they all fled and foresook him" when Jesus was arrested.

If I expected someone I knew to be dead and he wasn't (whether because of resurrection or because he wasn't dead) I would still recognize him. How could I not? I think Jesus' appearance had changed. Or perhaps those disciples didn't actually know what he looked like up close?

And how does this even factor into your argument? If he WERE dead and resurrected, how would it be different in them recognizing him than if he really didn't die but they thought he did and they saw him? The outcome would be the same.

[Same Hakeem]

Thanks Bill the Cat for asking.

The answer to your question "You do realize that going to heaven changes the body, right?" is yes because and in heaven will be the resurrected.

[Bill the Cat]

One Bad Pig writing "your conundrum fails if Jesus wasn't speaking literally in Mt. 13:43" is refuted by Rev 1:16 which describes Jesus in heaven as follows:

"His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance."

You do realize that going to heaven changes the body, right?

[Same Hakeem]

Sparko writing "He just kept ignoring BP and repeating himself. And coming up with the lamest excuses ever (like his last one: the cross was outside of Jerusalem)" is not true. Otherwise, please show me what I ignored.

You writing "Basically he just calls Jesus a liar, because Jesus said he was going to die and be resurrected. So either he was a false prophet, or Hakeem (and Islam) is wrong" is not true to me because I submit Jesus is a true prophet and did not die according to John 20:19 because Jesus was crucified near (not in) the city of Jerusalem while Jesus said in Luke 13:33 "no prophet can die out of Jerusalem" This is coupled with evidence shown in the trial and post trial accocnts.