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Commentary thread - Hakeem vs. Boxing Pythagoras - did Jesus die on the cross?

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  • Christianbookworm
    replied
    Jesus either is Liar, Lunatic, or Lord. I believe the evidence points to Lord. No mere human could pull off telling a storm to stop and it does!

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  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    The Prophet Jesus said He would both die and come back from the dead. And God told Moses in the Law saying regarding the Prophet Jesus, ". . . And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him." -- Deuteronomy 18:19. So when the Prophet Jesus said He would both die and come back from the dead it was because God said so (John 7:16). And those who refuse to hear it, God requires this to be believed of them.
    Yep. Either the muslims have to believe that Jesus was a liar and therefore a false prophet, or that he was telling the truth and was dead and resurrected.

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  • Christianbookworm
    replied
    What would be the point of Jesus showing up to scare the tunics off the religious leaders/Sanhedrin anyway? They'd probably try to kill Him again. It wouldn't work, but Jesus probably isn't interested in having rocks and arrows bounce off of Him like a cartoon character!

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  • 37818
    replied
    The Prophet Jesus said He would both die and come back from the dead. And God told Moses in the Law saying regarding the Prophet Jesus, ". . . And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him." -- Deuteronomy 18:19. So when the Prophet Jesus said He would both die and come back from the dead it was because God said so (John 7:16). And those who refuse to hear it, God requires this to be believed of them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill the Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
    1) Bill the Cat writing on the sign of Jonah "It was typology for Jesus death, burial, and resurrection" is not true because Jonah miracle is his survival of death everytime Jonah faced death.

    No it wasn't. It was being released from the fish after 3 days. Jesus Himself explained what it was a mere few words after saying it. So, turn to the next page in your Muslim script and try again...

    Jonah was not resurrected because Jonah did not die at all before coming out from the fish.
    That was not Jesus' point. He SPECIFICALLY said that He would be buried for 3 days, just as Jonah was in the fish for 3 days. That is the ONLY correlation He was drawing.

    In fact, Jonah was praying to God from inside the fish for three days and nights as per Jonah 1:17 - 2:1. Therefore, Jonah never experienced death in the fish because "Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?" according to Psalm 6:5.
    Jesus was not mentioning that Jonah died. Only that He was in the fish for 3 days, and that would be how long He would be in the grave.

    By the way, the "sign" in Matthew 16:4 is rendered either "miracle" or "miraclous sign" in several Bible versions which both mean the same as per follows Matthew 16:4;

    * GOOD NEWS TRANSLATION Matthew 16:4:
    4 How evil and godless are the people of this day! You ask me for a miracle? No! The only miracle you will be given is the miracle of Jonah." So he left them and went away.


    ** NEW INTERNATIONAL READER VERSION Matthew 16:4:

    An evil and unfaithful people look for a miraculous sign. But none will be given to them except the sign of Jonah." Then Jesus left them and went away.

    *** New LIVING TRANSLATION Matthew 16:4:
    Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign, but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah." Then Jesus left them and went away.
    Those are not literal translations of the Bible. But, please keep trying. Your stunning ignorance gives me a good laugh.


    2) Rogue06 quoting Revelation 1:17-18 is not historical evidence because this was said in a vision or dream.
    So, Jesus gets to lie in visions?


    We are debating the topic based on historical basis. For example, had Jesus been dead and risen immortally (i.e. resurrected), Jesus SHOULD have appeared to even one of his alleged killers of the Jews in the 40 days before his ascention because
    How do you know He didn't?

    1 Cor 15:6 ESV
    Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.

    Prove that none of them were his killers.

    (1) Jesus promised these Jews of rising after three days ans nights like Jonah as per Matthew 12:38-40
    Well, the fish vomited Jonah out onto the land (Jon 2:10), so if we are sticking with literal parallels, did the tomb come to life and vomit Jesus up?

    and (2) because Jesus came to the sinners not to the righteous as per Jesus own words in Mark 2:17.
    That was Jesus insulting the Pharisees who THOUGHT they were righteous. David declared that NONE are righteous, so that means Jesus came for everyone.

    But the reality he limited his appearences in his flesh and bones to the disciples, the women and the 500 brethren.
    And you have not a single shred of proof that one of those 500 was not someone who crucified Him.

    Quoting non eyewitnesses such as the disciples cannot be accepted unless are verified against the eyewitesses (i.e. Pilate & the women) reactions in words and deeds as well as all behaviours of Jesus himself before ascending.
    Pilate was surprised that Jesus had died. He would not have been surprised at Jesus death had Jesus not died. The women tended to Jesus' dead body in the tomb. All verified He was dead. Jesus Himself said He would die. The Gospels report He died. He died. Period.

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  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    1) Bill the Cat writing on the sign of Jonah "It was typology for Jesus death, burial, and resurrection" is not true because Jonah miracle is his survival of death everytime Jonah faced death.

    Jonah was not resurrected because Jonah did not die at all before coming out from the fish. In fact, Jonah was praying to God from inside the fish for three days and nights as per Jonah 1:17 - 2:1. Therefore, Jonah never experienced death in the fish because "Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?" according to Psalm 6:5.

    By the way, the "sign" in Matthew 16:4 is rendered either "miracle" or "miraclous sign" in several Bible versions which both mean the same as per follows Matthew 16:4;

    * GOOD NEWS TRANSLATION Matthew 16:4:
    4 How evil and godless are the people of this day! You ask me for a miracle? No! The only miracle you will be given is the miracle of Jonah." So he left them and went away.


    ** NEW INTERNATIONAL READER VERSION Matthew 16:4:

    An evil and unfaithful people look for a miraculous sign. But none will be given to them except the sign of Jonah." Then Jesus left them and went away.

    *** New LIVING TRANSLATION Matthew 16:4:
    Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign, but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah." Then Jesus left them and went away.

    2) Rogue06 quoting Revelation 1:17-18 is not historical evidence because this was said in a vision or dream.

    We are debating the topic based on historical basis. For example, had Jesus been dead and risen immortally (i.e. resurrected), Jesus SHOULD have appeared to even one of his alleged killers of the Jews in the 40 days before his ascention because (1) Jesus promised these Jews of rising after three days ans nights like Jonah as per Matthew 12:38-40 and (2) because Jesus came to the sinners not to the righteous as per Jesus own words in Mark 2:17. But the reality he limited his appearences in his flesh and bones to the disciples, the women and the 500 brethren.

    Quoting non eyewitnesses such as the disciples cannot be accepted unless are verified against the eyewitesses (i.e. Pilate & the women) reactions in words and deeds as well as all behaviours of Jesus himself before asending.

    Leave a comment:


  • psstein
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Really? This is in direct contradiction with what Jesus Himself said. And not some cryptical indirect reference that could be read in a variety of ways, but what He explicitly and clearly said.
    It's also in contradiction to the extra-biblical sources of Josephus, Mara Bar Serapion, and Tacitus.

    There's a reason why Jesus' death on the cross is one of the only unanimously held positions among NT scholars.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christianbookworm
    replied
    He really thinks someone would call a friend's dead body a corpse/carcass? I don't think anyone ever said they buried their friend's carcass...

    Leave a comment:


  • 37818
    replied
    Jesus Himself said, ". . . Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. . . ." (John 10:17-18.)

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
    Not at all. All my resources on my conclusion that Jesus did not die at all is the Bible.
    Really? This is in direct contradiction with what Jesus Himself said. And not some cryptical indirect reference that could be read in a variety of ways, but what He explicitly and clearly said.
    But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades --Revelation 1:17-18

    That Jesus died is also verified by Luke in Acts:
    The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree --Acts 5:30

    Paul also references Christ's death in Romans on three separate occasions:
    For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. --Romans 5:6

    Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him --Romans 6:8

    If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. --Romans 10:9

    And again in I Corinthians:
    For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures --I Corinthians 15:3

    So does John in I John:
    By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. --I John 3:16

    And as does Peter in I Peter:
    For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit --I Peter 3:18

    And then there is also what Peter preached during the Pentecost sermon recorded in Acts
    Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know -- this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it --Acts 2:22-24

    Peter continues on speaking of how Jesus was resurrected in verses 31 and 32

    Fail better.
    Last edited by rogue06; 08-07-2017, 07:50 AM.

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  • Christianbookworm
    replied
    Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
    Not at all. Can you please elaborate?
    I am poking fun at the swoon hypothesis that claims Jesus didn't die on the cross but was merely unconsious and somehow recovered in a chilly tomb with no food, water, or medical care. Surviving a crucifixion(and all the other stuff Jesus went through) without medical care would be as much of a miracle as the Resurrection.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill the Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
    Not at all. All my resources on my conclusion that Jesus did not die at all is the Bible.
    No it isn't. It's your horrible eisegesis of a few verses that ignore the rest of the testimony of the New Testament.

    So for instance, Jesus promised the Jews of his time to perform for them only miracle of Jonah according to Matthew 16:4. So please tell us the miracle of Jonah.
    Wrong. He promised them the SIGN of Jonah.

    For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. It was typology for Jesus death, burial, and resurrection.

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I'm beginning to suspect that Hakeem doesn't have the tools to understand just how far off-base he is.
    Not at all. All my resources on my conclusion that Jesus did not die at all is the Bible.

    So for instance, Jesus promised the Jews of his time to perform for them only miracle of Jonah according to Matthew 16:4. So please tell us the miracle of Jonah.

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    He's ignoring me.... Does he know about superheroes with healing factors? Because Jesus wasn't some superhero with the super power of recovering from crucifixion! I don't think being the incarnate Son of God counts as a super power.
    Not at all. Can you please elaborate?

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    FIFY n/c

    Leave a comment:

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