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Commentary thread - Hakeem vs. Boxing Pythagoras - did Jesus die on the cross?

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  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Cerebrum123 "The time factor, and the fact that Jesus came out are the points of comparison" is true because Jonah miracle was not for sure resurrection as Jonah was miraclously saved alive inside the fish for three days and three nights.

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  • Cerebrum123
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Cerebrum123 claiming "The only thing necessary for Jesus to have been truly resurrected was immortality" is true but there is no real proof from the accounts of the New Testament that Jesus was REALLY immortal since no one saw Jesus rising from the dead. To the contrary, Jesus never appeared once to one of his alleged killers of the Jews whereas Jesus himself promise to show them the miracle of Jonah (Matthew 16:4; New Living Translation), which is surviving death, according to the Book of Jonah.


    Matthew 12:38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”

    39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    The time factor, and the fact that Jesus came out are the points of comparison. The same as when Jesus compared himself to the serpent lifted up on a pole by Moses. The people of Nineveh didn't Jonah spit out by the "great fish", but he "was a sign to them".

    Luke 11:29 As the crowds increased, Jesus said, “This is a wicked generation. It asks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. 30 For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation.

    There is nothing in the book of Jonah that explicitly has him go and tell them about his experience in the "great fish" either. Are you going to say Jonah wasn't miraculously saved by Allah?

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  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    The real test to validate if Jesus really died or did not die at all is if "Christ will be THE FIRST to rise from the dead" according to Acts 26:23. However, Jesus was not the first to rise from the dead according to the Bible. For instance, "the dead bodies of the saints who died and rose from the dead" according to Matthew 27:52. Therefore, Jesus cannot be risen from the dead according to Acts 26:23 and hence did not die at all.

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  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    1) Christian3 saying “the disciples did recognize Jesus on the road to Emmaus when He wanted them to” amounts to prove that Jesus was not resurrected and did not really die because when resurrected, 1 Corinthians 15:49 “we shall bear the image of the heavenly". And the resurrected will be glorified and be shining like the sun according to Matthew 13:43;

    “Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father”

    However, Jesus was not heavenly resurrected and was not shining like sun after he came from the tomb. Had Jesus been resurrected and glorified, the disciples that walked, talked, ate and spent over night with Jesus on his way to Emmaus would have recognized him easily; however, they did not recognize him till Jesus wanted so.

    2) Christian3 saying “Jesus appearing to His killers would not have worked because they still would not have believed” is not relevant because Jesus promised the Jews to perform FOR THEM the miracle of Jonah in Matthew 16:4 (New Living Translation);
    “Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign, but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah." Then Jesus left them and went away”

    3) Hebrews 9:27 saying "people are destined to die once" means people will die once.
    Last edited by Same Hakeem; 06-08-2018, 08:29 PM.

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  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Cerebrum123 claiming "The only thing necessary for Jesus to have been truly resurrected was immortality" is true but there is no real proof from the accounts of the New Testament that Jesus was REALLY immortal since no one saw Jesus rising from the dead. To the contrary, Jesus never appeared once to one of his alleged killers of the Jews whereas Jesus himself promise to show them the miracle of Jonah (Matthew 16:4; New Living Translation), which is surviving death, according to the Book of Jonah.
    Last edited by Same Hakeem; 06-08-2018, 08:15 PM.

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  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    According to the Bible in Hebrew 9:27 "it is once to die" and in 1 Corinthians 15:52 "the dead will be raised immortally"

    Had Jesus been resurrected (i.e. raised immortally), Jesus should have appeared even once in the Temple in Jerusalem in the same flesh and bones he appeared to the disciples in the upper room and to only one of his alleged killers of the Jews and the Romans. But not once he showed up front of the alleged killers of Jews and Romans. To make it worse, when in public, he was not recognized even by his disciples on the way to Emmaus until he drew their attention in Luke 24:31-32.
    1 Corinthians 15 has already been explained to you.

    The disciples did recognize Jesus on the road to Emmaus when He wanted them to and this has already been explained to you.

    Jesus did appear to two people who did not believe in Him – James and Paul.

    Jesus appearing to His killers would not have worked because they still would not have believed; instead He appeared to those who would proclaim the good news of the Gospel.

    Returning to Hebrews 9:27, let’s put the verse in context:

    11 But the Messiah has appeared, high priest of the good things that have come.[a] In the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands (that is, not of this creation), 12 He entered the most holy place once for all, not by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow, sprinkling those who are defiled, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of the Messiah, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse our[b] consciences from dead works to serve the living God?

    15 Therefore, He is the mediator of a new covenant,[c] so that those who are called might receive the promise of the eternal inheritance, because a death has taken place for redemption from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16 Where a will exists, the death of the one who made it must be established.

    24 For the Messiah did not enter a sanctuary made with hands (only a model[e] of the true one) but into heaven itself, so that He might now appear in the presence of God for us. 25 He did not do this to offer Himself many times, as the high priest enters the sanctuary yearly with the blood of another.26 Otherwise, He would have had to suffer many times since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared one time, at the end of the ages, for the removal of sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for people to die once—and after this, judgment— 28 so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but[f] to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him.

    What else does Hebrews say?

    Hebrews 2:9-10

    "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering."

    Notice the author of Hebrews said Jesus died.

    Hebrews 2:14-15, 17-18

    "Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death - that is, the devil - and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death ... For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

    Notice again the author says that Jesus died.

    So, you put your own spin on Scriptures taking them out of context and in the process you make a liar and a false prophet out of Jesus and His disciples and the author of Hebrews.

    An early Christian creed is captured in the work of Paul.

    1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

    This creed is considered pre-Pauline and is recognized as such by virtually all critical scholars across a very wide theological spectrum.

    Some date this creed from 3 to 8 years after Jesus' crucifixion.

    In your fanciful interpretation, you still have failed to say what happened to Jesus.

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  • Cerebrum123
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    According to the Bible in Hebrew 9:27 "it is once to die" and in 1 Corinthians 15:52 "the dead will be raised immortally"

    Had Jesus been resurrected (i.e. raised immortally), Jesus should have appeared even once in the Temple in Jerusalem in the same flesh and bones he appeared to the disciples in the upper room and to only one of his alleged killers of the Jews and the Romans. But not once he showed up front of the alleged killers of Jews and Romans. To make it worse, when in public, he was not recognized even by his disciples on the way to Emmaus until he drew their attention in Luke 24:31-32.
    There is no reason that such an event would need to have played out under the rules you try to add. The only thing necessary for Jesus to have been truly resurrected was immortality.

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    According to the Bible in Hebrew 9:27 "it is once to die" and in 1 Corinthians 15:52 "the dead will be raised immortally"

    Had Jesus been resurrected (i.e. raised immortally), Jesus should have appeared even once in the Temple in Jerusalem in the same flesh and bones he appeared to the disciples in the upper room and to only one of his alleged killers of the Jews and the Romans. But not once he showed up front of the alleged killers of Jews and Romans. To make it worse, when in public, he was not recognized even by his disciples on the way to Emmaus until he drew their attention in Luke 24:31-32.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    What kind of proof are you seeking? historical or theological or logical? or all?
    Scriptural proof.

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
    Proof?
    What kind of proof are you seeking? historical or theological or logical? or all?

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Kind of ignores the massive amount of evidence to the contrary.
    I think there is a reason a Muslim would ignore the massive amount of evidence to the contrary and that is if they admit that Jesus died then they would have to consider Jesus died for the reasons the New Testament says He did -- to save us from our sins.

    And I don't think they can do that and still remain a Muslim because they have a lot to lose, one being their lives.

    Muslims try to save themselves with good deeds.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cerebrum123
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    The answer is that Jesus did not die at all and was taken into heaven alive.
    Kind of ignores the massive amount of evidence to the contrary.

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  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    The answer is that Jesus did not die at all and was taken into heaven alive.
    Proof?

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  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
    Other prophets died outside of Jerusalem and you know that.

    Islam considers John the Baptist a prophet and he died outside of Jerusalem.

    Islam considers Muhammad a prophet and he died outside of Jerusalem.

    Hakeem, it is way past time for you to tell us what happened to Jesus if He did not die. WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER???
    The answer is that Jesus did not die at all and was taken into heaven alive.

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  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    The answer to "How in the world does the bolded portion above negate the possibility of sarcasm?" is that the text of Luke 13:33 does not even indicate sarcasm and also Jesus words in Luke 13:34-35;

    "34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.”
    So, nothing but your own assertion. Got it.

    Leave a comment:

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