Commentary thread - Hakeem vs. Boxing Pythagoras - did Jesus die on the cross?

[Bill the Cat]

The answer to the question of Bill the Cat "Since you choose to take the Bible as true in Luke 22:44, then why do you doubt Luke 23:46?" lies in the fact that after all abuses and tortures Jesus received in his trial and after his cry out and after the spear thrust, Pilate was surprised to hear that Jesus died in Mark 15:44 and was in doubt of his alleged death;

Because people usually survived on a cross longer. Pilate wasn't there at the crucifixion, so he would have not known that Jesus had died. Jesus was just one of many insignificant rabble rousers of that time, and the only reason Pilate even cared was that the Jews had made such a big stink. The Bible says He breathed His last. If you are at all consistent, if you accept the words of Luke 22:44 as true, then you must also accept 23:46 where it says He breathed His last. That has nothing to do with Pilate's surprise.

therefore, Pilate asked the centurion to confirm if he was dead in Mark 15:44. Had Jesus been really dead, Pilate would have not doubted and asked the centurion to confirm IF he was dead.

That's so stupid, it actually burns my skin... Neither the Centurion nor Pilate were present at the crucifixion. The Centurion at Pilate's would have checked with the garrison commander over executions to see if the report of Jesus' death were true. And when they were confirmed, the matter was put to rest. He died. End of debate.

In Mark 15:45, we are told "after he confirmed, he granted his body to Joseph" Mark 15:45 tells he confirmed but does not tell us what he confirmed.

Mark 15:45 uses the Greek term πτῶμα (ptōma), which is always used to describe a corpse or a carcass - NEVER a living person.

[Cerebrum123]

I know. It's all cherry picking and drawing conclusions. And when you try to use the other parts of the bible to show they are wrong, they ignore that. You can't accept just the parts of the bible you want to (and completely out of context).

Hakeem: The bible says that Jesus prayed to be saved!

Us: Well yeah, but the bible also says he was not saved from the cross but was crucified, died and resurrected.

Hakeem: The bible says that Jesus prayed to be saved!

They do the same with the Koran. You can find many passages that call for the subjugation of all non-Muslims, and they will just be hand waved away. Even when you go and grab supporting evidence from what we have of Mohammed's history recorded in the Hadith and in the earliest biographies.

[Same Hakeem]

The answer to the question of Bill the Cat "Since you choose to take the Bible as true in Luke 22:44, then why do you doubt Luke 23:46?" lies in the fact that after all abuses and tortures Jesus received in his trial and after his cry out and after the spear thrust, Pilate was surprised to hear that Jesus died in Mark 15:44 and was in doubt of his alleged death; therefore, Pilate asked the centurion to confirm if he was dead in Mark 15:44. Had Jesus been really dead, Pilate would have not doubted and asked the centurion to confirm IF he was dead.

In Mark 15:45, we are told "after he confirmed, he granted his body to Joseph" Mark 15:45 tells he confirmed but does not tell us what he confirmed.

The answer to Sparko request "Show where this prayer was granted" is in Jesus own words in Matthew 7:7 "ask and it will be given to you"

The answer to Sparko question "Why do you only accept certain verses of the bible in isolation and reject the rest of the bible that clearly says that Jesus was crucified, died and was resurrected?" is not true. The fact is that when we read the accounts of Jesus trial together, it is evident that he did not die at all and all the Bible does is reporting what others (eyewitnesses & non eyewitnesses) thought Jesus experienced.

For example, Jesus by his own behaviours proved that he did not die at all when he did not appear even once to one of his alleged killers of the Jews in the same flesh and bones. Had he been dead and risen immortally (i.e. resurrected), Jesus SHOULD have appeared to at least one of his alleged killers of the Jews in his 40 days before ascention because he came to the sinners not to the righteous in Mark 2:17. Otherwise, Jews would have surely killed.

[Sparko]

Muslim anti-Christian polemic tends to be painfully bad. You'd think that after 1400 years of practice they'd come up with something better.

I know. It's all cherry picking and drawing conclusions. And when you try to use the other parts of the bible to show they are wrong, they ignore that. You can't accept just the parts of the bible you want to (and completely out of context).

Hakeem: The bible says that Jesus prayed to be saved!

Us: Well yeah, but the bible also says he was not saved from the cross but was crucified, died and resurrected.

Hakeem: The bible says that Jesus prayed to be saved!

[One Bad Pig]

Since you choose to take the Bible as true in Luke 22:44, then why do you doubt Luke 23:46? Admit it... it's the Muslim script, isn't it?

Muslim anti-Christian polemic tends to be painfully bad. You'd think that after 1400 years of practice they'd come up with something better.

[Sparko]

Thanks Rogue06 for your comment.

However, Luke 22:44 does not make a mention of what you mentioned above. All Luke 22:44 says is "Being in agony, he prayed more earnestly". He was praying more earnestly to be saved. This is supported by Hebrews 5:7.

My above statement is in line with Christian commentaries on Luke 22:44 found at biblehub.com

Why do you only accept certain verses of the bible in isolation and reject the rest of the bible that clearly says that Jesus was crucified, died and was resurrected?

[Sparko]

As I said earlier, Jesus prayed to be saved from death according to Luke 22:42-44 after he said he will die

Show where this prayer was granted.

He prayed "if it is your will" - well, it wasn't.

[Bill the Cat]

Aruging that Jesus request to be saved from death was subject to the will of the Father in Luke 22:42 is still not good enough because after that Jesus went on to with the same prayer in Luke 22:44 without subjecting his request to the will of the Father.

Since you choose to take the Bible as true in Luke 22:44, then why do you doubt Luke 23:46? Admit it... it's the Muslim script, isn't it?

[Same Hakeem]

Thanks Rogue06 for your comment.

However, Luke 22:44 does not make a mention of what you mentioned above. All Luke 22:44 says is "Being in agony, he prayed more earnestly". He was praying more earnestly to be saved. This is supported by Hebrews 5:7.

My above statement is in line with Christian commentaries on Luke 22:44 found at biblehub.com

[Cerebrum123]

Aruging that Jesus request to be saved from death was subject to the will of the Father in Luke 22:42 is still not good enough because after that Jesus went on to with the same prayer in Luke 22:44 without subjecting his request to the will of the Father.

Uh, that's not what the passage says at all. Again, you need to work on your reading comprehension.

[rogue06]

Aruging that Jesus request to be saved from death was subject to the will of the Father in Luke 22:42 is still not good enough because after that Jesus went on to with the same prayer in Luke 22:44 without subjecting his request to the will of the Father.

It is conceivable that He was praying about how he would die rather than the fact that He would die.

[Same Hakeem]

Aruging that Jesus request to be saved from death was subject to the will of the Father in Luke 22:42 is still not good enough because after that Jesus went on to with the same prayer in Luke 22:44 without subjecting his request to the will of the Father.

[Bill the Cat]

Luke 22:41 And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, 42 saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” 43 [i]Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him. 44 And being in agony He was praying very fervently; and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground.

You really need to work on reading comprehension.

It's the Muslim script he's reading. It's like a telemarketer.

[Cerebrum123]

As I said earlier, Jesus prayed to be saved from death according to Luke 22:42-44 after he said he will die

Luke 22:41 And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, 42 saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” 43 [i]Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him. 44 And being in agony He was praying very fervently; and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground.

You really need to work on reading comprehension.

[Same Hakeem]

As I said earlier, Jesus prayed to be saved from death according to Luke 22:42-44 after he said he will die