Commentary thread - Hakeem vs. Boxing Pythagoras - did Jesus die on the cross?

[Christian3]

Bill The Cat saying " He declared He would die and rise again " does not recognise the fact that AFTER Jesus made such a prophecy that he will be killed and rise, Jesus prayed to be saved from death according to Luke 22:42-44.

Luke 22: 42 “Father, if You are willing, take this cup away from Me—nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done.”

What was the cup?

It was the cup of God's wrath.

Isaiah 51:17
Wake yourself, wake yourself up! Stand up, Jerusalem, you who have drunk the cup of His fury from the hand of the Lord; you who have drunk the goblet to the dregs— the cup that causes people to stagger.


Isaiah 51:22
This is what your Lord says— Yahweh, even your God, who defends His people— “Look, I have removed the cup of staggering from your hand; that goblet, the cup of My fury. You will never drink it again.

Jeremiah 25:15
[ The Cup of God’s Wrath ] This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, said to me: “Take this cup of the wine of wrath from My hand and make all the nations I am sending you to, drink from it.

Jeremiah 25:17
So I took the cup from the Lord’s hand and made all the nations drink from it, everyone the Lord sent me to.

Jeremiah 25:27-29Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
27 “Then you are to say to them: This is what the LORD of Hosts, the God of Israel, says: Drink, get drunk, and vomit. Fall down and never get up again, as a result of the sword I am sending among you. 28 If[a] they refuse to take the cup from you and drink, you are to say to them: This is what the LORD of Hosts says: You must drink! 29 For I am already bringing disaster on the city that bears My name, so how could you possibly go unpunished? You will not go unpunished, for I am summoning a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth”—this is the declaration of the LORD of Hosts.

Lamentations 4:21-22Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
שׂ Sin
21 So rejoice and be glad, Daughter Edom,
you resident of the land of Uz!
Yet the cup will pass to you as well;
you will get drunk and expose yourself.
ת Tav
22 Daughter Zion, your punishment is complete;
He will not lengthen your exile.[a]
But He will punish your iniquity, Daughter Edom,
and will expose your sins.

Ezekiel 23:31-34Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
31 You have followed the path of your sister, so I will put her cup in your hand.”
32 This is what the Lord GOD says:
You will drink your sister’s cup,
which is deep and wide.
You will be an object of[a] ridicule and scorn,
for it holds so much.
33 You will be filled with drunkenness and grief,
with a cup of devastation and desolation,
the cup of your sister Samaria.
34 You will drink it and drain it;
then you will gnaw its broken pieces,
and tear your breasts.
For I have spoken.
This is the declaration of the Lord GOD.

Habakkuk 2:16Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
16 You will be filled with disgrace instead of glory.
You also—drink,
and expose your uncircumcision![a]
The cup in the LORD’s right hand
will come around to you,
and utter disgrace will cover your glory.

Jesus asked if there was another way other than enduring the cup of wrath, which included His death, and the Father said no.

[Christian3]

Can you kindly provide us with an evidence to the above statement?

Jesus was whipped by the Romans. What did that mean? The Romans would strip a person down to the waist and would tie him in the courtyard. Then they would take a whip that had a handle about a foot and a half long. At the end of the handle, it had four leather thongs with heavy, jagged bones or balls of lead with jagged edges, wound into the end of the straps. A minimum of five. They would be different lengths. The Romans would bring the whip down over the back of the individual and all the balls of lead or bone would hit the body at the same time. And they would yank the whip down. The Jews would only permit 40 lashes. So they never did more than 39 so they wouldn't break the law if they miscounted. The Romans could do as many as they wanted. So, when the Romans whipped a Jew, they did 41 or more out of spite to the Jews. And so he had probably at least 41, if not more, lashes.

There are several medical authorities that have done research on crucifixion. One is a Dr. Barbet, in France, and another is Dr. C. Truman Davis, in the state of Arizona in my country. He is a medical doctor who has done meticulous study of the crucifixion from a medical perspective. Here he gives the effect of the Roman flogging:

"The heavy whip is brought down with full force again and again across (a person's) shoulders, back and legs. At first, the heavy thongs cut through the skin only. Then, as the blows continue, they cut deeper into the subcutalleous tissues, producing first an oozing of blood from the capillaries and veins of the skin, and finally spurting arterial bleeding from vessels in the underlying muscles. The small balls of lead first produce large, deep bruises, which the others cut wide open. Finally, the skin of the back is hanging in long ribbons, and the entire area is an unrecognizable mass of torn, bleeding tissue."

Sometimes the back is literally opened up to the bowels within. Many people would die just from the whipping.

After the whipping they took Jesus out to the execution area and drove spikes into His wrists and His feet. It says that late that Friday afternoon they broke the legs of the two thieves hanging with Jesus, but they did not break His legs. Now, why did they break someone's legs? When you are prostrate on the cross, or hanging there, they bent the legs up underneath and drove the spike through here. When you died by crucifixion, often what would happen is you would die from your own air. The pectoral muscles would be affected and you could not let your air out. You could take it in, but could not let it out.

And so, you'd hang there and suffocate, you would push up on your legs to let the air out, and then come down to take it in. When they wanted to bring about the death immediately, they broke their legs and they couldn't push up, and they would die. Jesus' legs were not broken. As the Holy God, revealing His Holy Word in the Bible, points out, Jesus had died. If they had broken His legs, He would not have been the Messiah. He would not have been the Eternal Word, because God, in the Old Testament, prophesies in Psalms that His legs would not be broken. He was fulfilling what God had already revealed would take place.

In John 19:30, Jesus willed Himself to die, That's why He didn't take so long, He came to die. He said, "I lay My life down." And in John 19, He said, "It is finished," and He bowed His head and He gave up the Spirit, He willed Himself to die, Now, in John 19, verse 34.

He was on the cross and they'd already acknowledged Him being dead, but just to make sure they took a spear, and thrust it into His side. Eyewitness accounts said blood and water came out separated.

From a medical viewpoint: A wound of the type inflicted on Jesus, if the person were still alive, would not bleed out the wound opening, but bleed into the chest cavity, causing an internal hemorrhage. At the aperture of the wound, the blood would be barely oozing from the opening. For a spear to form a perfect channel that would allow the blood and serum to flow out the spear wound is next to impossible. The massive internal damage done to a person under crucifixion, and then being speared in the heart area, would cause death almost immediately.

At the State of Massachusetts General Hospital, over a period of years, they did research on people who died of a ruptured heart. Normally, the heart had 20 cc's of pericardial fluid. When a person dies of a ruptured heart, there is more than 500 cc's of pericardial fluid, and it would come out in the form of a fluid and clotted blood.
The Jewish burial would have been a final death blow. They gave Jesus the Jewish burial bath, plastered him with 100 pounds of aloe and myrrh. Now, going through whipping, where the back is almost laid open, having your arms and feet pierced, being put on a cross, having a spear thrust in your side, being taken down and then plastered with 100-some pounds of spices of cement consistency - it would call for a greater miracle than the resurrection to live through that.

Source: Josh McDowell

[Christian3]

Christian3 saying "Consider that the Qur'an does not deny the death of the Messiah, Jesus, but only denies that the Jews killed Jesus and they didn't, the Romans did" is acceptable.

I would like to point out that my position is biblical driven position.

So does the Qur'an say Jesus died or not?

[Christian3]

Thanks Rogue06 for your comment.

However, Luke 22:44 does not make a mention of what you mentioned above. All Luke 22:44 says is "Being in agony, he prayed more earnestly". He was praying more earnestly to be saved. This is supported by Hebrews 5:7.

My above statement is in line with Christian commentaries on Luke 22:44 found at biblehub.com

Hebrews 5:7???

Verse 7 does not say that Jesus didn't die on the cross. You must put verse 7 in context in order to know what the author of Hebrews is saying.

Hebrews 2:9-10

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering."

Notice the author says that Jesus died.

Hebrews 2:14-15, 17-18

"Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death - that is, the devil - and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death ... For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Notice again the author says that Jesus died.

Hebrews 6:4-6

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Hebrews 7:23-28

"Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Such a high priest meets our need - one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever."

Hebrews 9:11-15

"When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance-now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant."

Hebrews 9:24-28

"For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Hebrews 10:10-14, 19-20

And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy ... Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body."

Hebrews 12:2-3

"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart."

Hebrews 13:12-13, 20-21

"so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore ... May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

What the author of Hebrews is telling us in Hebrews 5:7, is that God saved Jesus from the dead by raising Him back to life. It is not saying that God saved Jesus from death on the cross.

When put in context, the meaning is very clear.

[Christian3]

It is conceivable that He was praying about how he would die rather than the fact that He would die.

Exactly.

Jesus was torchered to death, no one wants to die that way. There is a difference between being afraid to die and being afraid of how we die. Nevertheless, Jesus went through with it.

[Christian3]

Thanks Sparko. Now I understand your questions.

The answer to Sparko questions below lies in the fact the disciples thought he should be dead in the tomb for three days and three nights because they heard from other sources that he died on the cross and was laid in tomb. All their source of what happened to him is what they heard from others because Mark 14:50 says "they ALL have fled and foresook him" when Jesus was arrested.

The following questions are Sparko quedtions;

Scenario 1: Disciples on the road think Jesus died, but he didn't. They don't recognize him because?

Scenario 2: Disciples on the road think Jesus died, and he did but was resurrected. They don't recognize him because?

The Scriptures tell us by they didn't recongnize Jesus on the road:

"16 But they[c] were prevented from recognizing Him."

Jesus had something to tell these men:

25 He said to them, “How unwise and slow you are to believe in your hearts all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Didn’t the Messiah have to suffer these things and enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted for them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

Jesus needed their full attention which they would not have given Him if they recognized Him.

But:

30 It was as He reclined at the table with them that He took the bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened, and they recognized Him, but He disappeared from their sight.

[Same Hakeem]

And some died just from the beating before being placed on the cross.

Can you kindly provide us with an evidence to the above statement?

[Christian3]

Mossrose writing " The executioners had crucified thousands of people by the time of Jesus' death. They certainly weren't too stupid to not recognize a dead person when they saw one, and that is without the medical knowledge we boast of now" is refuted by the fact that after all trial Jesus received by the Roman Soldiers who were experts in killing, Pilate was surprised to hear Jesus died according to Mark 15:44 because according to Christian Commentaries at biblehub.com on Mark 15:44 that is common for the victim of crucifixion to live upto days.

And some died just from the beating before being placed on the cross.

[One Bad Pig]

Christian3 saying "Consider that the Qur'an does not deny the death of the Messiah, Jesus, but only denies that the Jews killed Jesus and they didn't, the Romans did" is acceptable.

I would like to point out that my position is biblical driven position.

It's not, however. You (and the Jewish Encyclopedia) are reading into John 19:29 what simply isn't there. All that was offered to Jesus on a sponge at that point was the unadulterated wine the soldiers had around to consume themselves; it would not have nearly been enough to intoxicate him or dull the pain, even if he managed to somehow suck down the whole sponge-full. Even if, for the sake of argument, there was some myrrh mixed with the wine, he didn't get much of it, and almost certainly died before it would have taken effect.

[Same Hakeem]

Christian3 saying "Consider that the Qur'an does not deny the death of the Messiah, Jesus, but only denies that the Jews killed Jesus and they didn't, the Romans did" is acceptable.

I would like to point out that my position is biblical driven position.

[Christian3]

sure i understand posts but i don't buy whats against the scriptures.

Consider that the Qur'an does not deny the death of the Messiah, Jesus, but only denies that the Jews killed Jesus and they didn't, the Romans did.

[Sparko]

If this is how Hakeem argues in a thread, I doubt anyone would bother debating him in his challenge in the Arena. It would be like arguing with a brick wall.

[One Bad Pig]

sure i understand posts but i don't buy whats against the scriptures.

I didn't say anything about you not understanding my post. Your response isn't giving me much confidence that you can, however.

[Cerebrum123]

sure i understand posts but i don't buy whats against the scriptures.

Strange post for one who is posting against what the Quran itself affirms as scriptures.

[Same Hakeem]

sure i understand posts but i don't buy whats against the scriptures.