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Commentary thread - Hakeem vs. Boxing Pythagoras - did Jesus die on the cross?

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  • #61
    Desert Berean writing " It even says in Mark that Pilate sent for the centurion to confirm that Jesus was dead. Is the centurion going to lie to the one who could have him punished for lying to him?" is answered in Mark 15:45 that says" after he confirmed, Pilate gave his body:

    Nowhere Mark mentions that he confirmed he was dead. All Mark 15:45 says is "after he confirmed." What he confirmed is unmentioned by the Centurion.

    The answer to your question "And what about the Jews asking him for a guard on the tomb? Why didn't he say, "Don't be silly" if he didn't believe Jesus was dead?" is that Jews asked for a guard after Jesus tomb was unguarded for a day as Mathhew 27:62 says " The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate."

    Comment


    • #62
      One Bad Pig writing "your conundrum fails if Jesus wasn't speaking literally in Mt. 13:43" is refuted by Rev 1:16 which describes Jesus in heaven as follows:

      "His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance."

      Comment


      • #63
        Desert Berean writing "Hakeem does raise a fresh point ... the failure to recognize Jesus on the road to Emmaus...but ignores that those two disciples ran to the the others and said that Jesus is indeed risen" is not true because I agree that Jesus was risen but not resurrected because Jesus did not die at all.

        Rise and resurrection are not necessarily the same.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
          Desert Berean writing "Hakeem does raise a fresh point ... the failure to recognize Jesus on the road to Emmaus...but ignores that those two disciples ran to the the others and said that Jesus is indeed risen" is not true because I agree that Jesus was risen but not resurrected because Jesus did not die at all.

          Rise and resurrection are not necessarily the same.
          Whether Jesus was resurrected or never died, how do you explain the disciples not recognizing him?

          Comment


          • #65
            Sparko question "Whether Jesus was resurrected or never died, how do you explain the disciples not recognizing him?" is answered by the fact that they expected him to dead in the grave because they heard from sources that Jesus died. All their source in this regard is from other sources because Mark 14:50 says " they all fled and foresook him" when Jesus was arrested.

            Comment


            • #66
              Sparko writing "He just kept ignoring BP and repeating himself. And coming up with the lamest excuses ever (like his last one: the cross was outside of Jerusalem)" is not true. Otherwise, please show me what I ignored.

              You writing "Basically he just calls Jesus a liar, because Jesus said he was going to die and be resurrected. So either he was a false prophet, or Hakeem (and Islam) is wrong" is not true to me because I submit Jesus is a true prophet and did not die according to John 20:19 because Jesus was crucified near (not in) the city of Jerusalem while Jesus said in Luke 13:33 "no prophet can die out of Jerusalem" This is coupled with evidence shown in the trial and post trial accocnts.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
                One Bad Pig writing "your conundrum fails if Jesus wasn't speaking literally in Mt. 13:43" is refuted by Rev 1:16 which describes Jesus in heaven as follows:

                "His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance."
                You do realize that going to heaven changes the body, right?
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                - Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • #68
                  Thanks Bill the Cat for asking.

                  The answer to your question "You do realize that going to heaven changes the body, right?" is yes because and in heaven will be the resurrected.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
                    Sparko question "Whether Jesus was resurrected or never died, how do you explain the disciples not recognizing him?" is answered by the fact that they expected him to dead in the grave because they heard from sources that Jesus died. All their source in this regard is from other sources because Mark 14:50 says " they all fled and foresook him" when Jesus was arrested.
                    If I expected someone I knew to be dead and he wasn't (whether because of resurrection or because he wasn't dead) I would still recognize him. How could I not? I think Jesus' appearance had changed. Or perhaps those disciples didn't actually know what he looked like up close?

                    And how does this even factor into your argument? If he WERE dead and resurrected, how would it be different in them recognizing him than if he really didn't die but they thought he did and they saw him? The outcome would be the same.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Thanks Sparko for your comments and queries.

                      Sparko writing "I think Jesus' appearance had changed. Or perhaps those disciples didn't actually know what he looked like up close?" is not true biblically for the reasons below;

                      1. Jesus appearance did not change because Jesus to the disciples in Luke 24:39 post trial "behold my hands and my feet IT IS I MYSELF handle me and see for a spirit has no flesh and bones as you see me have". Jesus saying "it is I myself handle me and see" proves he was same Jesus they were walking, talking, eating and spending night with Jesus on the way to Emmaus though they did not recognise him.

                      2. Had Jesus been dead and resurrected, the disciples would have recognised Jesus because (a) Jesus said in Matthew "the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father" and (b) they were walking, talking, eating and spending night with Jesus on the way to Emmaus though they did not recognise him.

                      The answer to your question "And how does this even factor into your argument? If he WERE dead and resurrected, how would it be different in them recognizing him than if he really didn't die but they thought he did and they saw him? The outcome would be the same" is in item# 1 and 2 above.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
                        Thanks Bill the Cat for asking.

                        The answer to your question "You do realize that going to heaven changes the body, right?" is yes because and in heaven will be the resurrected.
                        AND changed. See 1 Cor 15:51-53
                        That's what
                        - She

                        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                        - Stephen R. Donaldson

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          AND changed. See 1 Cor 15:51-53
                          Yes indeed we will be changed according to 1 corinthians 15:51

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
                            Yes indeed we will be changed according to 1 corinthians 15:51
                            Exactly. That's why Jesus wasn't "shining" with the Disciples. He had not ascended and put on incorruptibility yet.
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            - Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
                              Thanks Sparko for your comments and queries.

                              Sparko writing "I think Jesus' appearance had changed. Or perhaps those disciples didn't actually know what he looked like up close?" is not true biblically for the reasons below;

                              1. Jesus appearance did not change because Jesus to the disciples in Luke 24:39 post trial "behold my hands and my feet IT IS I MYSELF handle me and see for a spirit has no flesh and bones as you see me have". Jesus saying "it is I myself handle me and see" proves he was same Jesus they were walking, talking, eating and spending night with Jesus on the way to Emmaus though they did not recognise him.

                              2. Had Jesus been dead and resurrected, the disciples would have recognised Jesus because (a) Jesus said in Matthew "the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father" and (b) they were walking, talking, eating and spending night with Jesus on the way to Emmaus though they did not recognise him.

                              The answer to your question "And how does this even factor into your argument? If he WERE dead and resurrected, how would it be different in them recognizing him than if he really didn't die but they thought he did and they saw him? The outcome would be the same" is in item# 1 and 2 above.
                              If they would have recognized him if he was resurrected after they thought he was dead, then why would they not recognize him if he didn't die? Your argument doesn't make sense.

                              Answer these two scenarios and show why they would be different:

                              Scenario 1: Disciples on the road think Jesus died, but he didn't. They don't recognize him because?

                              Scenario 2: Disciples on the road think Jesus died, and he did but was resurrected. They don't recognize him because?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Sparko asking " If they would have recognized him if he was resurrected after they thought he was dead, then why would they not recognize him if he didn't die? " is the most plausible answer is that Jesus was in disguise in public* in light of the following two fact that (1) his disciples were not able to know it was Jesus who was talking, walking, eating and spending night with them in Luke 24 and (2) Jesus never showed himself once to one of his alleged killers of the Jews and Romans when Jesus should have appeared to these sinners because Jesus said in Mark 2:17 "I come not to the righteous but to the sinner"

                                I donot understand your other two questions.

                                Comment

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