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Commentary thread - Hakeem vs. Boxing Pythagoras - did Jesus die on the cross?

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  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Christian3, thanks for your questions

    The answer to "If you don't believe Jesus died, then what do you think happened to Him?" is that after Jesus survival, Jesus ascended unto heaven.

    The answer "Do you believe Jesus was nailed to a cross?" is no as far as the nailing part because the nailing was not mentioned. I believe he was tortured on the cross for 6 to 9 hours and did not die at all in fulfillment of Jesus words that a prophet CANNOT die outside Jerusalem in Luke 13:33. Jesus was however on the cross outside of Jerusalem according John 19:20. There are of course many other verses in support of Jesus words in Luke 13:33.
    How did Jesus survive?

    Are you an AHMADIYAH Muslim?

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Thanks Christian3 for the input.

    However, in Luke 13:33, Jesus referred to himself as a prophet because Jesus said "Ï must press on today, tomorrow and day after for a prophet CANNOT die outside of Jerusalem"

    The key word from Jesus lips is "CANNOT" which means "impossible" so when Jesus dies, he must die in Jerusalem. However, Jesus was only on the cross outside Jerusalem according to John 19:20 "Jesus was crucified NEAR the city"

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Christian3, thanks for your questions

    The answer to "If you don't believe Jesus died, then what do you think happened to Him?" is that after Jesus survival, Jesus ascended unto heaven.

    The answer "Do you believe Jesus was nailed to a cross?" is no as far as the nailing part because the nailing was not mentioned. I believe he was tortured on the cross for 6 to 9 hours and did not die at all in fulfillment of Jesus words that a prophet CANNOT die outside Jerusalem in Luke 13:33. Jesus was however on the cross outside of Jerusalem according John 19:20. There are of course many other verses in support of Jesus words in Luke 13:33.
    Net Bible: 119 sn Death in Jerusalem is another key theme in Luke’s material: 7:16, 34; 24:19; Acts 3:22-23. Notice that Jesus sees himself in the role of a prophet here. Jesus’ statement, it is impossible that a prophet should be killed outside Jerusalem, is filled with irony; Jesus, traveling about in Galilee (most likely), has nothing to fear from Herod; it is his own people living in the very center of Jewish religion and worship who present the greatest danger to his life. The underlying idea is that Jerusalem, though she stands at the very heart of the worship of God, often kills the prophets God sends to her (v. 34). In the end, Herod will be much less a threat than Jerusalem.

    So what do you think happened to Jesus if you think He did not die?

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Yes, it was.

    John 20:25 - The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

    Or is that verse, like all the ones mentioning Jesus' death on the cross, one you conveniently ignore?


    I stand corrected. Thanks One Bad Pig

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Christian3, thanks for your questions

    The answer to "If you don't believe Jesus died, then what do you think happened to Him?" is that after Jesus survival, Jesus ascended unto heaven.

    The answer "Do you believe Jesus was nailed to a cross?" is no as far as the nailing part because the nailing was not mentioned. I believe he was tortured on the cross for 6 to 9 hours and did not die at all in fulfillment of Jesus words that a prophet CANNOT die outside Jerusalem in Luke 13:33. Jesus was however on the cross outside of Jerusalem according John 19:20.
    Yes, it was.

    John 20:25 - The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

    Or is that verse, like all the ones mentioning Jesus' death on the cross, one you conveniently ignore?

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Christian3, thanks for your questions

    The answer to "If you don't believe Jesus died, then what do you think happened to Him?" is that after Jesus survival, Jesus ascended unto heaven.

    The answer "Do you believe Jesus was nailed to a cross?" is no as far as the nailing part because the nailing was not mentioned. I believe he was tortured on the cross for 6 to 9 hours and did not die at all in fulfillment of Jesus words that a prophet CANNOT die outside Jerusalem in Luke 13:33. Jesus was however on the cross outside of Jerusalem according John 19:20. There are of course many other verses in support of Jesus words in Luke 13:33.
    Last edited by Same Hakeem; 02-09-2018, 04:01 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    The old Muslim chestnut that it was really Judas, not Jesus, is much more believable than the theory that Jesus survived crucifixion. I have no idea what Hakeem thinks he's proving here.

    *wanders off bored*
    He's not proving anything here. He lost the debate but can't accept it.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
    If you don't believe Jesus died, then what do you think happened to Him?

    Do you believe Jesus was nailed to a cross?
    The old Muslim chestnut that it was really Judas, not Jesus, is much more believable than the theory that Jesus survived crucifixion. I have no idea what Hakeem thinks he's proving here.

    *wanders off bored*

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Saying "the word Ptoma is used in Mark 15:45" is true based on most ancient manuscripts available. However, my point is that had Jesus been surely dead when his body was laid in tomb in Luke 23:55, the word "Ptoma" would been surely used, which always refers to a dead body. However, it was the word "Soma" used in Luke 23:55, which can mean dead or living body depending on the evidence. The evidence from the Bible shows that the dead "is sown in corruption" according to 1 Corinthians 15:42 but Jesus did not see corruption in the tomb according to Acts 13:37. Also, Jesus made a must to die in Jerusalem in Luke 13:33 "In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day--for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!" However, Jesus was on the cross outside Jerusalem according to John 19:20 "Jesus was crucified was near the CITY"


    I agree with you quoting 1 Corinthians 15:52 "the dead will be raised incorruptible and we will be changed" but Jesus never saw corruption according to Acts 13:37 and also Jesus was not changed according to Jesus when he said after he came from the room "it is I myself" in Luke 24:39 meaning I have not changed it.

    Will post more later
    If you don't believe Jesus died, then what do you think happened to Him?

    Do you believe Jesus was nailed to a cross?

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Saying "the word Ptoma is used in Mark 15:45" is true based on most ancient manuscripts available. However, my point is that had Jesus been surely dead when his body was laid in tomb in Luke 23:55, the word "Ptoma" would been surely used, which always refers to a dead body. However, it was the word "Soma" used in Luke 23:55, which can mean dead or living body depending on the evidence. The evidence from the Bible shows that the dead "is sown in corruption" according to 1 Corinthians 15:42 but Jesus did not see corruption in the tomb according to Acts 13:37. Also, Jesus made a must to die in Jerusalem in Luke 13:33 "In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day--for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!" However, Jesus was on the cross outside Jerusalem according to John 19:20 "Jesus was crucified was near the CITY"


    I agree with you quoting 1 Corinthians 15:52 "the dead will be raised incorruptible and we will be changed" but Jesus never saw corruption according to Acts 13:37 and also Jesus was not changed according to Jesus when he said after he came from the room "it is I myself" in Luke 24:39 meaning I have not changed it.

    Will post more later

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Your assumption is wholly unwarranted. Crucifixion was not an act people survived, and all four gospels affirm that Jesus died.

    It is true that Roman crucifixion was designed to kill a person on the cross, and it is also very true that crucifixion was designed to be a slow lingering death that took at least from 12 hours to several days. As such, Pilate marveled if Jesus was already dead in Mark 15:44 because of the very same fact that death by crucifixion was slow in nature.

    The gospels mention to us that Jesus breathed his last.

    That's a rather imaginative interpretation.
    It is easy to say but difficult to disapprove the scriptures.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Christian3 saying "I think you will find that Soma can refer to a living or a dead body" is correct. However, Ptoma always refer to a dead body. So had Jesus been surely dead, the word "ptoma" referring always to a dead body would have been surely used.

    The fact remains that Jesus did not see corruption in the tomb in Acts 13:37 because Jesus did not die at all because the Bible tells us that the dead body "is sown in corruption" in 1 Corinthians 15:42.

    The word Ptoma is used in Mark 15:45. What else does Mark 15 say?

    37 But Jesus let out a loud cry and breathed His last.” This means Jesus stopped breathing and died.
    Acts 13:37 means that Jesus’ body did not go to dust like all other dead bodies because Jesus was raised from the dead.

    What else does Acts say?

    Acts 2: 22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: This Jesus the Nazarene was a man pointed out to you by God with miracles, wonders, and signs that God did among you through Him, just as you yourselves know. 23 Though He was delivered up according to God’s determined plan and foreknowledge, you used[e] lawless people[f] to nail Him to a cross and kill Him. 24 God raised Him up, ending the pains of death, because it was not possible for Him to be held by it.

    What is Apostle Paul saying in 1 Corinthians 15?

    Paul believes in a physical resurrection.

    Paul is saying that they are sown in weakness, they're raised in power. They're sown in dishonor, they're raised in glory. They're sown perishable, they're raised imperishable. They're sown natural -- bodies with all their fleshly and sinful desires and with hearts and lungs -- but raised and transformed into a new body with spiritual appetites, and empowered by God's Spirit. There is no thought about a contrast between physical verses spiritual.

    If Paul had meant to draw a comparison between material verses immaterial, he had a better Greek word at his disposal, which he had already used a few chapters earlier with a similar analogy of sowing. (I Corinthians 9:11) He doesn't use tht word here, though. That's more evidence that this has nothing to do with material verses immaterial. (Licona)

    Flesh and Blood:

    1Co 15:50 "I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

    Let’s look at 1 Corinthians 15:50 in context.

    1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (New King James Version)

    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[a]

    When putting verse 50 in context it is clear that Paul is speaking of corruptible flesh. He is not saying that our resurrected bodies will not have flesh, but that it will not have perishable flesh.


    John 5:28-29 (New King James Version)
    28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

    Jesus indicates our bodies will rise from the dead.

    Luke 24:39 (New King James Version)
    39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

    Jesus’ resurrected body has flesh and bones.

    Matthew 28:6 (New King James Version)
    6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

    Jesus rose from the dead and His body rose from the dead, leaving behind an empty tomb.


    In Luke 24:39 above Jesus is assuring His disciples that He is not a ghost. He has flesh and bones.

    Notice what Peter says in Acts 2:31 about our resurrected bodies.

    Acts 2:31 (New King James Version)
    31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

    Paul says the same in Acts 13:

    34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus:


    ‘ I will give you the sure mercies of David.’[g]
    35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm:


    ‘ You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.’

    When Jesus said, His body had flesh and bones; He did not mean that it did not also have blood. Flesh and bones can be seen or noticed, blood cannot be easily seen unless you put a knife into the body and let its blood flow out.

    The phrase “flesh and blood” simply means a human being – a mortal human being – or better yet, “flesh and blood” is a metaphor for human weakness.

    Jesus makes this clear when He used the phrase “flesh and blood” in Matthew 16:17

    Matthew 16:17 (New King James Version)
    17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

    Hakeem, you take Scriptures out of context and put your own spin on them. You keep repeating yourself when you have been refuted.

    You have lost this debate.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Christian3 saying "I think you will find that Soma can refer to a living or a dead body" is correct. However, Ptoma always refer to a dead body. So had Jesus been surely dead, the word "ptoma" referring always to a dead body would have been surely used.
    Your assumption is wholly unwarranted. Crucifixion was not an act people survived, and all four gospels affirm that Jesus died.
    The fact remains that Jesus did not see corruption in the tomb in Acts 13:37 because Jesus did not die at all because the Bible tells us that the dead body "is sown in corruption" in 1 Corinthians 15:42.
    That's a rather imaginative interpretation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Christian3 saying "I think you will find that Soma can refer to a living or a dead body" is correct. However, Ptoma always refer to a dead body. So had Jesus been surely dead, the word "ptoma" referring always to a dead body would have been surely used.

    The fact remains that Jesus did not see corruption in the tomb in Acts 13:37 because Jesus did not die at all because the Bible tells us that the dead body "is sown in corruption" in 1 Corinthians 15:42.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
    Bill the Cat writing " Mark 15:45 uses the Greek term πτῶμα (ptōma), which is always used to describe a corpse or a carcass - NEVER a living person" is irrelevant because what matters is the fact that the greek word used for Jesus body when laid in the tomb in Luke 23:55 is not PTOMA. Had Jesus been really dead, thd word ptoma that means always dead body should have been used.
    I think you will find that Soma can refer to a living or a dead body.

    Leave a comment:

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