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Commentary thread - Hakeem vs. Boxing Pythagoras - did Jesus die on the cross?

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  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Rogue06 saying "Christ Himself directly references His death" is true subject to the condition that Jesus made in Luke 13:33 that "I must walk today, tomorrow and the day after for a prophet CANNOT die outside Jerusalem"
    You're putting far more weight on this than it will bear. You're assuming that no prophet, ever, could die outside Jerusalem. That is an exceedingly unlikely proposition. For example, Jesus called John the Baptist the greatest of the prophets (Mat. 11:7-11). John the Baptist, however, did not die in Jerusalem, but near the Dead Sea.

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  • Cerebrum123
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Cerebrum123 saying "Take a few deep breaths. Your brain appears to be deprived of oxygen. If you've really gone that long without breathing and without dying, then go to Guinness. They are always looking for new world records" is not supported biblically and historically in terms to the roman crucifixion methodology. According to roman crucifixion, death on the cross was slow lingering process that it was common to take average of three days. However, Jesus was on the cross only for less than half a day (i.e. 9 hours) and hence Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Please visit Christian commentaries in this regard at http://biblehub.com/commentaries/mark/15-44.htm
    You forgot to take those breaths like I advised didn't you?

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Rogue06 saying "Christ Himself directly references His death" is true subject to the condition that Jesus made in Luke 13:33 that "I must walk today, tomorrow and the day after for a prophet CANNOT die outside Jerusalem"

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Cerebrum123 saying "Take a few deep breaths. Your brain appears to be deprived of oxygen. If you've really gone that long without breathing and without dying, then go to Guinness. They are always looking for new world records" is not supported biblically and historically in terms to the roman crucifixion methodology. According to roman crucifixion, death on the cross was slow lingering process that it was common to take average of three days. However, Jesus was on the cross only for less than half a day (i.e. 9 hours) and hence Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Please visit Christian commentaries in this regard at http://biblehub.com/commentaries/mark/15-44.htm
    Last edited by Same Hakeem; 02-11-2018, 12:28 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Thanks Christian3.

    Saying "When you stop breathing for the length of time Jesus stopped breathing you are dead" is not true because Jesus was only on the cross for less half a day whereas the victim of crucifixion lives at least 12 hours to several days according to even Christian sources at https://www.studylight.org/commentary/mark/15-44.html

    In the Greek of the Gospels, there was no mention of the term "he breathed his last". However, the term "he gave up his spirit" is the employed term for example in John 19:30. But of course no could see a spirit so it must be concluded based on the notion that since he stopped breathing then he gave up spirit, which is not correct because of the fact the crucifixion does not render a victim till days according to even the crucifixion sources.

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  • Cerebrum123
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Cerebrum123, the answer to " The same Gospels that repeatedly state that Jesus died and resurrected?" is not very accurate statement because the authors of the Gospels tell us that Jesus breathed his last (no where the term 'died" is used in Jesus trial). Also, no one saw Jesus rising.
    Take a few deep breaths. Your brain appears to be deprived of oxygen. If you've really gone that long without breathing and without dying, then go to Guinness. They are always looking for new world records.

    Leave a comment:


  • JonathanL
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Christ Himself directly references His death
    But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades --Revelation 1:17-18

    That Jesus died is also verified by Luke in Acts:
    The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree --Acts 5:30

    The reference to "hanging him on a tree" is a direct reference to the crucifixion.

    Paul references Christ's death in Romans multiple times:
    For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. --Romans 5:6

    Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him --Romans 6:8

    because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. --Romans 10:9

    And again in I Corinthians:
    For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures --I Corinthians 15:3

    So does John in I John:
    By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. --I John 3:16

    And quotes Jesus in his gospel
    For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. --John 10:17

    And as does Peter in I Peter:
    For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit --I Peter 3:18

    And then there is also what Peter preached during the Pentecost sermon recorded in Acts
    Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know -- this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it --Acts 2:22-24

    Again note the linking of the crucifixion with His death. And I should add, Peter continues on speaking of how Jesus was resurrected in verses 31 and 32.
    For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

    None of these are from the gospels, except for John 10:17, and that one doesn't count because it doesn't literally say that he is going to die. It just says he's going to lay it down and pick it up again, kind of how you sometimes lay down your coffee cup on the table and pick it up again between sips



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  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Cerebrum123, the answer to " The same Gospels that repeatedly state that Jesus died and resurrected?" is not very accurate statement because the authors of the Gospels tell us that Jesus breathed his last (no where the term 'died" is used in Jesus trial). Also, no one saw Jesus rising.
    Christ Himself directly references His death
    But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades --Revelation 1:17-18

    That Jesus died is also verified by Luke in Acts:
    The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree --Acts 5:30

    The reference to "hanging him on a tree" is a direct reference to the crucifixion.

    Paul references Christ's death in Romans multiple times:
    For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. --Romans 5:6

    Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him --Romans 6:8

    because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. --Romans 10:9

    And again in I Corinthians:
    For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures --I Corinthians 15:3

    So does John in I John:
    By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. --I John 3:16

    And quotes Jesus in his gospel
    For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. --John 10:17

    And as does Peter in I Peter:
    For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit --I Peter 3:18

    And then there is also what Peter preached during the Pentecost sermon recorded in Acts
    Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know -- this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it --Acts 2:22-24

    Again note the linking of the crucifixion with His death. And I should add, Peter continues on speaking of how Jesus was resurrected in verses 31 and 32.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Thanks Christian3 for your questions.

    I am not ahmadiyah. I argue for the survival of Jesus based on the accounts of the Gospels.

    The answer to your "How did Jesus survive?" is lies in the fact that Jesus was on the cross for only few hours at maximum of 9 hours, which is not enough to kill person according to the Roman crucifixion system, where typical victim of crucifixion will continue to be alive to at least one day because crucifixion was slow lingering death designed to prolong the agony of the victim.

    This explains Pilate's marvel if Jesus was already dead in Mark 15:44.
    It often depends on what the condemned had previously been subjected to. The Gospels all mention that he was beaten and the prophecy contained in Isaiah 52:14 indicates that this beating was incredibly severe -- so much so that he was virtually unrecognizable.

    Then there is the matter of the scourging which Pilate ordered hoping it would sate the bloodlust of those calling for his crucifixion. Such a beating which literally ripped strips of flesh off the victim's back has been known to result in death. Add to that the exhausting ordeal of being forced to drag his instrument of execution through Jerusalem to Golgotha... All told it doesn't seem too shocking that he expired after only several hours rather than the usual day or more it took.

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  • JonathanL
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    the authors of the Gospels tell us that Jesus breathed his last (no where the term 'died" is used in Jesus trial)
    You don't expect anyone to believe that you think the Gospel authors could have meant anything other than "Jesus died" by using that phrase do you? The meaning of the phrase "breathed his last" when it's used in connection with Jesus' crucifixion is so obvious to even the most simpleminded fool that the only reason someone could pretend like it meant anything else is pure disingenuousness.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Cerebrum123, the answer to " The same Gospels that repeatedly state that Jesus died and resurrected?" is not very accurate statement because the authors of the Gospels tell us that Jesus breathed his last (no where the term 'died" is used in Jesus trial). Also, no one saw Jesus rising.
    When you stop breathing for the length of time Jesus stopped breathing you are dead.

    Jesus appeared to any after He rose from the dead.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Thanks Christian3 for your questions.

    I am not ahmadiyah. I argue for the survival of Jesus based on the accounts of the Gospels.

    The answer to your "How did Jesus survive?" is lies in the fact that Jesus was on the cross for only few hours at maximum of 9 hours, which is not enough to kill person according to the Roman crucifixion system, where typical victim of crucifixion will continue to be alive to at least one day because crucifixion was slow lingering death designed to prolong the agony of the victim.

    This explains Pilate's marvel if Jesus was already dead in Mark 15:44.
    How did Jesus survive?

    All the gospels and the NT testify that Jesus died and rose from the dead and Jesus said He would die and rise from the dead.

    Perhaps Pilate did not realize how badly He had been beaten. Jesus was so weak He had to have help carrying the cross beam and don't forget He was stabbed with a sword in the chest area.

    Jesus legs were not broken because He had stopped breathing. Why do you ignore all of this?

    You said you believed Jesus was crucified and nailed to a cross; however, the Qur'an says Jesus was not crucified:

    Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
    That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

    As for Pilate:

    Joseph went to Pilate while Jesus was still on the cross not breathing.

    Joseph didn't call Pilate up; he traveled to see him. This takes time.

    Joseph asks to speak to Pilate; this takes time for Pilate to come to Joseph.

    Pilate sends a centurion to go to the cross and make sure Jesus is dead. This takes time.

    The centurion goes back to Pilate and tells him that Jesus is dead; this takes time.

    Joseph is given permission to take Jesus down down from the cross so he returns to the cross; this takes time and all of this time Jesus has stopped breathing and has a fatal chest wound. Then Jesus is taken down from the cross.

    And on top of that Jesus is put into a tomb with a stone door which was slid into a groove. Yet Jesus is able to push it sideways even though there is nothing to grab on to on the inside of the tomb and all the while Jesus is bleeding from a stab wound and the wounds in His hands and feet. Jesus removed His clothes and took the time to fold them neatly!!!

    Then Jesus walks several miles and no one notices a naked, beaten, stabbed, bleeding man walking on the road and He walks on feet that have been run through by nails???

    Now tell us what happened to Jesus in your view. How did He survive and how long did He survive?

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Cerebrum123, the answer to " The same Gospels that repeatedly state that Jesus died and resurrected?" is not very accurate statement because the authors of the Gospels tell us that Jesus breathed his last (no where the term 'died" is used in Jesus trial). Also, no one saw Jesus rising.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cerebrum123
    replied
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Thanks Christian3 for your questions.

    I am not ahmadiyah. I argue for the survival of Jesus based on the accounts of the Gospels.

    The answer to your "How did Jesus survive?" is lies in the fact that Jesus was on the cross for only few hours at maximum of 9 hours, which is not enough to kill person according to the Roman crucifixion system, where typical victim of crucifixion will continue to be alive to at least one day because crucifixion was slow lingering death designed to prolong the agony of the victim.

    This explains Pilate's marvel if Jesus was already dead in Mark 15:44.
    The same Gospels that repeatedly state that Jesus died and resurrected? Right.

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Thanks Christian3 for your questions.

    I am not ahmadiyah. I argue for the survival of Jesus based on the accounts of the Gospels.

    The answer to your "How did Jesus survive?" is lies in the fact that Jesus was on the cross for only few hours at maximum of 9 hours, which is not enough to kill person according to the Roman crucifixion system, where typical victim of crucifixion will continue to be alive to at least one day because crucifixion was slow lingering death designed to prolong the agony of the victim.

    This explains Pilate's marvel if Jesus was already dead in Mark 15:44.

    Leave a comment:

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