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Commentary thread - Hakeem vs. Boxing Pythagoras - did Jesus die on the cross?

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  • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Christian3, thanks for your questions

    The answer to "If you don't believe Jesus died, then what do you think happened to Him?" is that after Jesus survival, Jesus ascended unto heaven.

    The answer "Do you believe Jesus was nailed to a cross?" is no as far as the nailing part because the nailing was not mentioned. I believe he was tortured on the cross for 6 to 9 hours and did not die at all in fulfillment of Jesus words that a prophet CANNOT die outside Jerusalem in Luke 13:33. Jesus was however on the cross outside of Jerusalem according John 19:20.
    Yes, it was.

    John 20:25 - The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

    Or is that verse, like all the ones mentioning Jesus' death on the cross, one you conveniently ignore?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Yes, it was.

      John 20:25 - The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

      Or is that verse, like all the ones mentioning Jesus' death on the cross, one you conveniently ignore?


      I stand corrected. Thanks One Bad Pig

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
        Christian3, thanks for your questions

        The answer to "If you don't believe Jesus died, then what do you think happened to Him?" is that after Jesus survival, Jesus ascended unto heaven.

        The answer "Do you believe Jesus was nailed to a cross?" is no as far as the nailing part because the nailing was not mentioned. I believe he was tortured on the cross for 6 to 9 hours and did not die at all in fulfillment of Jesus words that a prophet CANNOT die outside Jerusalem in Luke 13:33. Jesus was however on the cross outside of Jerusalem according John 19:20. There are of course many other verses in support of Jesus words in Luke 13:33.
        Net Bible: 119 sn Death in Jerusalem is another key theme in Luke’s material: 7:16, 34; 24:19; Acts 3:22-23. Notice that Jesus sees himself in the role of a prophet here. Jesus’ statement, it is impossible that a prophet should be killed outside Jerusalem, is filled with irony; Jesus, traveling about in Galilee (most likely), has nothing to fear from Herod; it is his own people living in the very center of Jewish religion and worship who present the greatest danger to his life. The underlying idea is that Jerusalem, though she stands at the very heart of the worship of God, often kills the prophets God sends to her (v. 34). In the end, Herod will be much less a threat than Jerusalem.

        So what do you think happened to Jesus if you think He did not die?

        Comment


        • Thanks Christian3 for the input.

          However, in Luke 13:33, Jesus referred to himself as a prophet because Jesus said "Ï must press on today, tomorrow and day after for a prophet CANNOT die outside of Jerusalem"

          The key word from Jesus lips is "CANNOT" which means "impossible" so when Jesus dies, he must die in Jerusalem. However, Jesus was only on the cross outside Jerusalem according to John 19:20 "Jesus was crucified NEAR the city"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
            Christian3, thanks for your questions

            The answer to "If you don't believe Jesus died, then what do you think happened to Him?" is that after Jesus survival, Jesus ascended unto heaven.

            The answer "Do you believe Jesus was nailed to a cross?" is no as far as the nailing part because the nailing was not mentioned. I believe he was tortured on the cross for 6 to 9 hours and did not die at all in fulfillment of Jesus words that a prophet CANNOT die outside Jerusalem in Luke 13:33. Jesus was however on the cross outside of Jerusalem according John 19:20. There are of course many other verses in support of Jesus words in Luke 13:33.
            How did Jesus survive?

            Are you an AHMADIYAH Muslim?

            Comment


            • Thanks Christian3 for your questions.

              I am not ahmadiyah. I argue for the survival of Jesus based on the accounts of the Gospels.

              The answer to your "How did Jesus survive?" is lies in the fact that Jesus was on the cross for only few hours at maximum of 9 hours, which is not enough to kill person according to the Roman crucifixion system, where typical victim of crucifixion will continue to be alive to at least one day because crucifixion was slow lingering death designed to prolong the agony of the victim.

              This explains Pilate's marvel if Jesus was already dead in Mark 15:44.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                Thanks Christian3 for your questions.

                I am not ahmadiyah. I argue for the survival of Jesus based on the accounts of the Gospels.

                The answer to your "How did Jesus survive?" is lies in the fact that Jesus was on the cross for only few hours at maximum of 9 hours, which is not enough to kill person according to the Roman crucifixion system, where typical victim of crucifixion will continue to be alive to at least one day because crucifixion was slow lingering death designed to prolong the agony of the victim.

                This explains Pilate's marvel if Jesus was already dead in Mark 15:44.
                The same Gospels that repeatedly state that Jesus died and resurrected? Right.

                Comment


                • Cerebrum123, the answer to " The same Gospels that repeatedly state that Jesus died and resurrected?" is not very accurate statement because the authors of the Gospels tell us that Jesus breathed his last (no where the term 'died" is used in Jesus trial). Also, no one saw Jesus rising.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                    Thanks Christian3 for your questions.

                    I am not ahmadiyah. I argue for the survival of Jesus based on the accounts of the Gospels.

                    The answer to your "How did Jesus survive?" is lies in the fact that Jesus was on the cross for only few hours at maximum of 9 hours, which is not enough to kill person according to the Roman crucifixion system, where typical victim of crucifixion will continue to be alive to at least one day because crucifixion was slow lingering death designed to prolong the agony of the victim.

                    This explains Pilate's marvel if Jesus was already dead in Mark 15:44.
                    How did Jesus survive?

                    All the gospels and the NT testify that Jesus died and rose from the dead and Jesus said He would die and rise from the dead.

                    Perhaps Pilate did not realize how badly He had been beaten. Jesus was so weak He had to have help carrying the cross beam and don't forget He was stabbed with a sword in the chest area.

                    Jesus legs were not broken because He had stopped breathing. Why do you ignore all of this?

                    You said you believed Jesus was crucified and nailed to a cross; however, the Qur'an says Jesus was not crucified:

                    Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
                    That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

                    As for Pilate:

                    Joseph went to Pilate while Jesus was still on the cross not breathing.

                    Joseph didn't call Pilate up; he traveled to see him. This takes time.

                    Joseph asks to speak to Pilate; this takes time for Pilate to come to Joseph.

                    Pilate sends a centurion to go to the cross and make sure Jesus is dead. This takes time.

                    The centurion goes back to Pilate and tells him that Jesus is dead; this takes time.

                    Joseph is given permission to take Jesus down down from the cross so he returns to the cross; this takes time and all of this time Jesus has stopped breathing and has a fatal chest wound. Then Jesus is taken down from the cross.

                    And on top of that Jesus is put into a tomb with a stone door which was slid into a groove. Yet Jesus is able to push it sideways even though there is nothing to grab on to on the inside of the tomb and all the while Jesus is bleeding from a stab wound and the wounds in His hands and feet. Jesus removed His clothes and took the time to fold them neatly!!!

                    Then Jesus walks several miles and no one notices a naked, beaten, stabbed, bleeding man walking on the road and He walks on feet that have been run through by nails???

                    Now tell us what happened to Jesus in your view. How did He survive and how long did He survive?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                      Cerebrum123, the answer to " The same Gospels that repeatedly state that Jesus died and resurrected?" is not very accurate statement because the authors of the Gospels tell us that Jesus breathed his last (no where the term 'died" is used in Jesus trial). Also, no one saw Jesus rising.
                      When you stop breathing for the length of time Jesus stopped breathing you are dead.

                      Jesus appeared to any after He rose from the dead.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                        the authors of the Gospels tell us that Jesus breathed his last (no where the term 'died" is used in Jesus trial)
                        You don't expect anyone to believe that you think the Gospel authors could have meant anything other than "Jesus died" by using that phrase do you? The meaning of the phrase "breathed his last" when it's used in connection with Jesus' crucifixion is so obvious to even the most simpleminded fool that the only reason someone could pretend like it meant anything else is pure disingenuousness.
                        ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                          Thanks Christian3 for your questions.

                          I am not ahmadiyah. I argue for the survival of Jesus based on the accounts of the Gospels.

                          The answer to your "How did Jesus survive?" is lies in the fact that Jesus was on the cross for only few hours at maximum of 9 hours, which is not enough to kill person according to the Roman crucifixion system, where typical victim of crucifixion will continue to be alive to at least one day because crucifixion was slow lingering death designed to prolong the agony of the victim.

                          This explains Pilate's marvel if Jesus was already dead in Mark 15:44.
                          It often depends on what the condemned had previously been subjected to. The Gospels all mention that he was beaten and the prophecy contained in Isaiah 52:14 indicates that this beating was incredibly severe -- so much so that he was virtually unrecognizable.

                          Then there is the matter of the scourging which Pilate ordered hoping it would sate the bloodlust of those calling for his crucifixion. Such a beating which literally ripped strips of flesh off the victim's back has been known to result in death. Add to that the exhausting ordeal of being forced to drag his instrument of execution through Jerusalem to Golgotha... All told it doesn't seem too shocking that he expired after only several hours rather than the usual day or more it took.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                            Cerebrum123, the answer to " The same Gospels that repeatedly state that Jesus died and resurrected?" is not very accurate statement because the authors of the Gospels tell us that Jesus breathed his last (no where the term 'died" is used in Jesus trial). Also, no one saw Jesus rising.
                            Christ Himself directly references His death
                            But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades --Revelation 1:17-18

                            That Jesus died is also verified by Luke in Acts:
                            The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree --Acts 5:30

                            The reference to "hanging him on a tree" is a direct reference to the crucifixion.

                            Paul references Christ's death in Romans multiple times:
                            For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. --Romans 5:6

                            Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him --Romans 6:8

                            because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. --Romans 10:9

                            And again in I Corinthians:
                            For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures --I Corinthians 15:3

                            So does John in I John:
                            By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. --I John 3:16

                            And quotes Jesus in his gospel
                            For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. --John 10:17

                            And as does Peter in I Peter:
                            For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit --I Peter 3:18

                            And then there is also what Peter preached during the Pentecost sermon recorded in Acts
                            Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know -- this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it --Acts 2:22-24

                            Again note the linking of the crucifixion with His death. And I should add, Peter continues on speaking of how Jesus was resurrected in verses 31 and 32.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              Christ Himself directly references His death
                              But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades --Revelation 1:17-18

                              That Jesus died is also verified by Luke in Acts:
                              The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree --Acts 5:30

                              The reference to "hanging him on a tree" is a direct reference to the crucifixion.

                              Paul references Christ's death in Romans multiple times:
                              For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. --Romans 5:6

                              Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him --Romans 6:8

                              because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. --Romans 10:9

                              And again in I Corinthians:
                              For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures --I Corinthians 15:3

                              So does John in I John:
                              By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. --I John 3:16

                              And quotes Jesus in his gospel
                              For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. --John 10:17

                              And as does Peter in I Peter:
                              For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit --I Peter 3:18

                              And then there is also what Peter preached during the Pentecost sermon recorded in Acts
                              Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know -- this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it --Acts 2:22-24

                              Again note the linking of the crucifixion with His death. And I should add, Peter continues on speaking of how Jesus was resurrected in verses 31 and 32.
                              For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

                              None of these are from the gospels, except for John 10:17, and that one doesn't count because it doesn't literally say that he is going to die. It just says he's going to lay it down and pick it up again, kind of how you sometimes lay down your coffee cup on the table and pick it up again between sips



                              ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                                Cerebrum123, the answer to " The same Gospels that repeatedly state that Jesus died and resurrected?" is not very accurate statement because the authors of the Gospels tell us that Jesus breathed his last (no where the term 'died" is used in Jesus trial). Also, no one saw Jesus rising.
                                Take a few deep breaths. Your brain appears to be deprived of oxygen. If you've really gone that long without breathing and without dying, then go to Guinness. They are always looking for new world records.

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