Commentary thread - Hakeem vs. Boxing Pythagoras - did Jesus die on the cross?

[Christian3]

It is conceivable that He was praying about how he would die rather than the fact that He would die.

Exactly.

Jesus was torchered to death, no one wants to die that way. There is a difference between being afraid to die and being afraid of how we die. Nevertheless, Jesus went through with it.

[Christian3]

Thanks Rogue06 for your comment.

However, Luke 22:44 does not make a mention of what you mentioned above. All Luke 22:44 says is "Being in agony, he prayed more earnestly". He was praying more earnestly to be saved. This is supported by Hebrews 5:7.

My above statement is in line with Christian commentaries on Luke 22:44 found at biblehub.com

Hebrews 5:7???

Verse 7 does not say that Jesus didn't die on the cross. You must put verse 7 in context in order to know what the author of Hebrews is saying.

Hebrews 2:9-10

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering."

Notice the author says that Jesus died.

Hebrews 2:14-15, 17-18

"Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death - that is, the devil - and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death ... For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Notice again the author says that Jesus died.

Hebrews 6:4-6

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Hebrews 7:23-28

"Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Such a high priest meets our need - one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever."

Hebrews 9:11-15

"When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance-now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant."

Hebrews 9:24-28

"For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Hebrews 10:10-14, 19-20

And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy ... Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body."

Hebrews 12:2-3

"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart."

Hebrews 13:12-13, 20-21

"so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore ... May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

What the author of Hebrews is telling us in Hebrews 5:7, is that God saved Jesus from the dead by raising Him back to life. It is not saying that God saved Jesus from death on the cross.

When put in context, the meaning is very clear.

[Christian3]

Christian3 saying "Consider that the Qur'an does not deny the death of the Messiah, Jesus, but only denies that the Jews killed Jesus and they didn't, the Romans did" is acceptable.

I would like to point out that my position is biblical driven position.

So does the Qur'an say Jesus died or not?

[Christian3]

Can you kindly provide us with an evidence to the above statement?

Jesus was whipped by the Romans. What did that mean? The Romans would strip a person down to the waist and would tie him in the courtyard. Then they would take a whip that had a handle about a foot and a half long. At the end of the handle, it had four leather thongs with heavy, jagged bones or balls of lead with jagged edges, wound into the end of the straps. A minimum of five. They would be different lengths. The Romans would bring the whip down over the back of the individual and all the balls of lead or bone would hit the body at the same time. And they would yank the whip down. The Jews would only permit 40 lashes. So they never did more than 39 so they wouldn't break the law if they miscounted. The Romans could do as many as they wanted. So, when the Romans whipped a Jew, they did 41 or more out of spite to the Jews. And so he had probably at least 41, if not more, lashes.

There are several medical authorities that have done research on crucifixion. One is a Dr. Barbet, in France, and another is Dr. C. Truman Davis, in the state of Arizona in my country. He is a medical doctor who has done meticulous study of the crucifixion from a medical perspective. Here he gives the effect of the Roman flogging:

"The heavy whip is brought down with full force again and again across (a person's) shoulders, back and legs. At first, the heavy thongs cut through the skin only. Then, as the blows continue, they cut deeper into the subcutalleous tissues, producing first an oozing of blood from the capillaries and veins of the skin, and finally spurting arterial bleeding from vessels in the underlying muscles. The small balls of lead first produce large, deep bruises, which the others cut wide open. Finally, the skin of the back is hanging in long ribbons, and the entire area is an unrecognizable mass of torn, bleeding tissue."

Sometimes the back is literally opened up to the bowels within. Many people would die just from the whipping.

After the whipping they took Jesus out to the execution area and drove spikes into His wrists and His feet. It says that late that Friday afternoon they broke the legs of the two thieves hanging with Jesus, but they did not break His legs. Now, why did they break someone's legs? When you are prostrate on the cross, or hanging there, they bent the legs up underneath and drove the spike through here. When you died by crucifixion, often what would happen is you would die from your own air. The pectoral muscles would be affected and you could not let your air out. You could take it in, but could not let it out.

And so, you'd hang there and suffocate, you would push up on your legs to let the air out, and then come down to take it in. When they wanted to bring about the death immediately, they broke their legs and they couldn't push up, and they would die. Jesus' legs were not broken. As the Holy God, revealing His Holy Word in the Bible, points out, Jesus had died. If they had broken His legs, He would not have been the Messiah. He would not have been the Eternal Word, because God, in the Old Testament, prophesies in Psalms that His legs would not be broken. He was fulfilling what God had already revealed would take place.

In John 19:30, Jesus willed Himself to die, That's why He didn't take so long, He came to die. He said, "I lay My life down." And in John 19, He said, "It is finished," and He bowed His head and He gave up the Spirit, He willed Himself to die, Now, in John 19, verse 34.

He was on the cross and they'd already acknowledged Him being dead, but just to make sure they took a spear, and thrust it into His side. Eyewitness accounts said blood and water came out separated.

From a medical viewpoint: A wound of the type inflicted on Jesus, if the person were still alive, would not bleed out the wound opening, but bleed into the chest cavity, causing an internal hemorrhage. At the aperture of the wound, the blood would be barely oozing from the opening. For a spear to form a perfect channel that would allow the blood and serum to flow out the spear wound is next to impossible. The massive internal damage done to a person under crucifixion, and then being speared in the heart area, would cause death almost immediately.

At the State of Massachusetts General Hospital, over a period of years, they did research on people who died of a ruptured heart. Normally, the heart had 20 cc's of pericardial fluid. When a person dies of a ruptured heart, there is more than 500 cc's of pericardial fluid, and it would come out in the form of a fluid and clotted blood.
The Jewish burial would have been a final death blow. They gave Jesus the Jewish burial bath, plastered him with 100 pounds of aloe and myrrh. Now, going through whipping, where the back is almost laid open, having your arms and feet pierced, being put on a cross, having a spear thrust in your side, being taken down and then plastered with 100-some pounds of spices of cement consistency - it would call for a greater miracle than the resurrection to live through that.

Source: Josh McDowell

[Christian3]

Bill The Cat saying " He declared He would die and rise again " does not recognise the fact that AFTER Jesus made such a prophecy that he will be killed and rise, Jesus prayed to be saved from death according to Luke 22:42-44.

[Christian3]

Bill the Cat writing " Mark 15:45 uses the Greek term πτῶμα (ptōma), which is always used to describe a corpse or a carcass - NEVER a living person" is irrelevant because what matters is the fact that the greek word used for Jesus body when laid in the tomb in Luke 23:55 is not PTOMA. Had Jesus been really dead, thd word ptoma that means always dead body should have been used.

I think you will find that Soma can refer to a living or a dead body.

[Same Hakeem]

Christian3 saying "I think you will find that Soma can refer to a living or a dead body" is correct. However, Ptoma always refer to a dead body. So had Jesus been surely dead, the word "ptoma" referring always to a dead body would have been surely used.

The fact remains that Jesus did not see corruption in the tomb in Acts 13:37 because Jesus did not die at all because the Bible tells us that the dead body "is sown in corruption" in 1 Corinthians 15:42.

[One Bad Pig]

Christian3 saying "I think you will find that Soma can refer to a living or a dead body" is correct. However, Ptoma always refer to a dead body. So had Jesus been surely dead, the word "ptoma" referring always to a dead body would have been surely used.

Your assumption is wholly unwarranted. Crucifixion was not an act people survived, and all four gospels affirm that Jesus died.

The fact remains that Jesus did not see corruption in the tomb in Acts 13:37 because Jesus did not die at all because the Bible tells us that the dead body "is sown in corruption" in 1 Corinthians 15:42.

That's a rather imaginative interpretation.

[Christian3]

Christian3 saying "I think you will find that Soma can refer to a living or a dead body" is correct. However, Ptoma always refer to a dead body. So had Jesus been surely dead, the word "ptoma" referring always to a dead body would have been surely used.

The fact remains that Jesus did not see corruption in the tomb in Acts 13:37 because Jesus did not die at all because the Bible tells us that the dead body "is sown in corruption" in 1 Corinthians 15:42.

you used[e] lawless people[f] to nail Him to a cross and kill Him.

[Same Hakeem]

Your assumption is wholly unwarranted. Crucifixion was not an act people survived, and all four gospels affirm that Jesus died.

It is true that Roman crucifixion was designed to kill a person on the cross, and it is also very true that crucifixion was designed to be a slow lingering death that took at least from 12 hours to several days. As such, Pilate marveled if Jesus was already dead in Mark 15:44 because of the very same fact that death by crucifixion was slow in nature.

The gospels mention to us that Jesus breathed his last.

That's a rather imaginative interpretation.

It is easy to say but difficult to disapprove the scriptures.

[Same Hakeem]

Saying "the word Ptoma is used in Mark 15:45" is true based on most ancient manuscripts available. However, my point is that had Jesus been surely dead when his body was laid in tomb in Luke 23:55, the word "Ptoma" would been surely used, which always refers to a dead body. However, it was the word "Soma" used in Luke 23:55, which can mean dead or living body depending on the evidence. The evidence from the Bible shows that the dead "is sown in corruption" according to 1 Corinthians 15:42 but Jesus did not see corruption in the tomb according to Acts 13:37. Also, Jesus made a must to die in Jerusalem in Luke 13:33 "In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day--for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!" However, Jesus was on the cross outside Jerusalem according to John 19:20 "Jesus was crucified was near the CITY"


I agree with you quoting 1 Corinthians 15:52 "the dead will be raised incorruptible and we will be changed" but Jesus never saw corruption according to Acts 13:37 and also Jesus was not changed according to Jesus when he said after he came from the room "it is I myself" in Luke 24:39 meaning I have not changed it.

Will post more later

[Christian3]

Saying "the word Ptoma is used in Mark 15:45" is true based on most ancient manuscripts available. However, my point is that had Jesus been surely dead when his body was laid in tomb in Luke 23:55, the word "Ptoma" would been surely used, which always refers to a dead body. However, it was the word "Soma" used in Luke 23:55, which can mean dead or living body depending on the evidence. The evidence from the Bible shows that the dead "is sown in corruption" according to 1 Corinthians 15:42 but Jesus did not see corruption in the tomb according to Acts 13:37. Also, Jesus made a must to die in Jerusalem in Luke 13:33 "In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day--for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!" However, Jesus was on the cross outside Jerusalem according to John 19:20 "Jesus was crucified was near the CITY"


I agree with you quoting 1 Corinthians 15:52 "the dead will be raised incorruptible and we will be changed" but Jesus never saw corruption according to Acts 13:37 and also Jesus was not changed according to Jesus when he said after he came from the room "it is I myself" in Luke 24:39 meaning I have not changed it.

Will post more later

If you don't believe Jesus died, then what do you think happened to Him?

Do you believe Jesus was nailed to a cross?

[One Bad Pig]

If you don't believe Jesus died, then what do you think happened to Him?

Do you believe Jesus was nailed to a cross?

The old Muslim chestnut that it was really Judas, not Jesus, is much more believable than the theory that Jesus survived crucifixion. I have no idea what Hakeem thinks he's proving here.

*wanders off bored*

[Christian3]

The old Muslim chestnut that it was really Judas, not Jesus, is much more believable than the theory that Jesus survived crucifixion. I have no idea what Hakeem thinks he's proving here.

*wanders off bored*

He's not proving anything here. He lost the debate but can't accept it.

[Same Hakeem]

Christian3, thanks for your questions

The answer to "If you don't believe Jesus died, then what do you think happened to Him?" is that after Jesus survival, Jesus ascended unto heaven.

The answer "Do you believe Jesus was nailed to a cross?" is no as far as the nailing part because the nailing was not mentioned. I believe he was tortured on the cross for 6 to 9 hours and did not die at all in fulfillment of Jesus words that a prophet CANNOT die outside Jerusalem in Luke 13:33. Jesus was however on the cross outside of Jerusalem according John 19:20. There are of course many other verses in support of Jesus words in Luke 13:33.