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Commentary thread - Hakeem vs. Boxing Pythagoras - did Jesus die on the cross?

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  • Bill the Cat writing " The word used in Luk 23:55 is *so'-mah, which is simply means "body" is true which can mean dead body or living body depending on the context. So had Jesus been dead and resurrected, the greek word always used for dead body (i.e. Ptoma), so had Jesus body been dead, PTOMA would have been used when Jesus body was laid in the tomb in Luke 23:55.

    Comment


    • Rogue06 writing " Hakeem, at some point you really need to start questioning why the sources you are relying on get just about everything so abysmally wrong" is interesting and needs to be clarified that the Bible reports (1) how eyewitnesses (Pilate and women) viewed and (2) how non-eye witnesses (disciples) viewed Jesus and (3) how Jesus acted post Jesus trial.

      We need to rely on eyewitnesses reactions in words and deeds and Jesus own behaviours in order to decide if he really died or not.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Hakeem, at some point you really need to start questioning why the sources you are relying on get just about everything so abysmally wrong
        I'm beginning to suspect that Hakeem doesn't have the tools to understand just how far off-base he is.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • He's ignoring me.... Does he know about superheroes with healing factors? Because Jesus wasn't some superhero with the super power of recovering from crucifixion! I don't think being the incarnate Son of God counts as a super power.
          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
            Bill the Cat writing " The word used in Luk 23:55 is *so'-mah, which is simply means "body" is true which can mean dead body or living body depending on the context. So had Jesus been dead and resurrected, the greek word always used for dead body (i.e. Ptoma), so had Jesus body been dead, PTOMA would have been used when Jesus body was laid in the tomb in Luke 23:55.
            That is not how any of this works...
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              FIFY n/c

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                He's ignoring me.... Does he know about superheroes with healing factors? Because Jesus wasn't some superhero with the super power of recovering from crucifixion! I don't think being the incarnate Son of God counts as a super power.
                Not at all. Can you please elaborate?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  I'm beginning to suspect that Hakeem doesn't have the tools to understand just how far off-base he is.
                  Not at all. All my resources on my conclusion that Jesus did not die at all is the Bible.

                  So for instance, Jesus promised the Jews of his time to perform for them only miracle of Jonah according to Matthew 16:4. So please tell us the miracle of Jonah.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
                    Not at all. All my resources on my conclusion that Jesus did not die at all is the Bible.
                    No it isn't. It's your horrible eisegesis of a few verses that ignore the rest of the testimony of the New Testament.

                    So for instance, Jesus promised the Jews of his time to perform for them only miracle of Jonah according to Matthew 16:4. So please tell us the miracle of Jonah.
                    Wrong. He promised them the SIGN of Jonah.

                    For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. It was typology for Jesus death, burial, and resurrection.
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
                      Not at all. Can you please elaborate?
                      I am poking fun at the swoon hypothesis that claims Jesus didn't die on the cross but was merely unconsious and somehow recovered in a chilly tomb with no food, water, or medical care. Surviving a crucifixion(and all the other stuff Jesus went through) without medical care would be as much of a miracle as the Resurrection.
                      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
                        Not at all. All my resources on my conclusion that Jesus did not die at all is the Bible.
                        Really? This is in direct contradiction with what Jesus Himself said. And not some cryptical indirect reference that could be read in a variety of ways, but what He explicitly and clearly said.
                        But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades --Revelation 1:17-18

                        That Jesus died is also verified by Luke in Acts:
                        The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree --Acts 5:30

                        Paul also references Christ's death in Romans on three separate occasions:
                        For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. --Romans 5:6

                        Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him --Romans 6:8

                        If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. --Romans 10:9

                        And again in I Corinthians:
                        For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures --I Corinthians 15:3

                        So does John in I John:
                        By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. --I John 3:16

                        And as does Peter in I Peter:
                        For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit --I Peter 3:18

                        And then there is also what Peter preached during the Pentecost sermon recorded in Acts
                        Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know -- this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it --Acts 2:22-24

                        Peter continues on speaking of how Jesus was resurrected in verses 31 and 32

                        Fail better.
                        Last edited by rogue06; 08-07-2017, 07:50 AM.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Jesus Himself said, ". . . Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. . . ." (John 10:17-18.)
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • He really thinks someone would call a friend's dead body a corpse/carcass? I don't think anyone ever said they buried their friend's carcass...
                            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              Really? This is in direct contradiction with what Jesus Himself said. And not some cryptical indirect reference that could be read in a variety of ways, but what He explicitly and clearly said.
                              It's also in contradiction to the extra-biblical sources of Josephus, Mara Bar Serapion, and Tacitus.

                              There's a reason why Jesus' death on the cross is one of the only unanimously held positions among NT scholars.

                              Comment


                              • 1) Bill the Cat writing on the sign of Jonah "It was typology for Jesus death, burial, and resurrection" is not true because Jonah miracle is his survival of death everytime Jonah faced death.

                                Jonah was not resurrected because Jonah did not die at all before coming out from the fish. In fact, Jonah was praying to God from inside the fish for three days and nights as per Jonah 1:17 - 2:1. Therefore, Jonah never experienced death in the fish because "Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?" according to Psalm 6:5.

                                By the way, the "sign" in Matthew 16:4 is rendered either "miracle" or "miraclous sign" in several Bible versions which both mean the same as per follows Matthew 16:4;

                                * GOOD NEWS TRANSLATION Matthew 16:4:
                                4 How evil and godless are the people of this day! You ask me for a miracle? No! The only miracle you will be given is the miracle of Jonah." So he left them and went away.


                                ** NEW INTERNATIONAL READER VERSION Matthew 16:4:

                                An evil and unfaithful people look for a miraculous sign. But none will be given to them except the sign of Jonah." Then Jesus left them and went away.

                                *** New LIVING TRANSLATION Matthew 16:4:
                                Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign, but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah." Then Jesus left them and went away.

                                2) Rogue06 quoting Revelation 1:17-18 is not historical evidence because this was said in a vision or dream.

                                We are debating the topic based on historical basis. For example, had Jesus been dead and risen immortally (i.e. resurrected), Jesus SHOULD have appeared to even one of his alleged killers of the Jews in the 40 days before his ascention because (1) Jesus promised these Jews of rising after three days ans nights like Jonah as per Matthew 12:38-40 and (2) because Jesus came to the sinners not to the righteous as per Jesus own words in Mark 2:17. But the reality he limited his appearences in his flesh and bones to the disciples, the women and the 500 brethren.

                                Quoting non eyewitnesses such as the disciples cannot be accepted unless are verified against the eyewitesses (i.e. Pilate & the women) reactions in words and deeds as well as all behaviours of Jesus himself before asending.

                                Comment

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