Commentary thread - Hakeem vs. Boxing Pythagoras - did Jesus die on the cross?

[One Bad Pig]

Since you choose to take the Bible as true in Luke 22:44, then why do you doubt Luke 23:46? Admit it... it's the Muslim script, isn't it?

Muslim anti-Christian polemic tends to be painfully bad. You'd think that after 1400 years of practice they'd come up with something better.

[Sparko]

Muslim anti-Christian polemic tends to be painfully bad. You'd think that after 1400 years of practice they'd come up with something better.

I know. It's all cherry picking and drawing conclusions. And when you try to use the other parts of the bible to show they are wrong, they ignore that. You can't accept just the parts of the bible you want to (and completely out of context).

Hakeem: The bible says that Jesus prayed to be saved!

Us: Well yeah, but the bible also says he was not saved from the cross but was crucified, died and resurrected.

Hakeem: The bible says that Jesus prayed to be saved!

[Same Hakeem]

The answer to the question of Bill the Cat "Since you choose to take the Bible as true in Luke 22:44, then why do you doubt Luke 23:46?" lies in the fact that after all abuses and tortures Jesus received in his trial and after his cry out and after the spear thrust, Pilate was surprised to hear that Jesus died in Mark 15:44 and was in doubt of his alleged death; therefore, Pilate asked the centurion to confirm if he was dead in Mark 15:44. Had Jesus been really dead, Pilate would have not doubted and asked the centurion to confirm IF he was dead.

In Mark 15:45, we are told "after he confirmed, he granted his body to Joseph" Mark 15:45 tells he confirmed but does not tell us what he confirmed.

The answer to Sparko request "Show where this prayer was granted" is in Jesus own words in Matthew 7:7 "ask and it will be given to you"

The answer to Sparko question "Why do you only accept certain verses of the bible in isolation and reject the rest of the bible that clearly says that Jesus was crucified, died and was resurrected?" is not true. The fact is that when we read the accounts of Jesus trial together, it is evident that he did not die at all and all the Bible does is reporting what others (eyewitnesses & non eyewitnesses) thought Jesus experienced.

For example, Jesus by his own behaviours proved that he did not die at all when he did not appear even once to one of his alleged killers of the Jews in the same flesh and bones. Had he been dead and risen immortally (i.e. resurrected), Jesus SHOULD have appeared to at least one of his alleged killers of the Jews in his 40 days before ascention because he came to the sinners not to the righteous in Mark 2:17. Otherwise, Jews would have surely killed.

[Cerebrum123]

I know. It's all cherry picking and drawing conclusions. And when you try to use the other parts of the bible to show they are wrong, they ignore that. You can't accept just the parts of the bible you want to (and completely out of context).

Hakeem: The bible says that Jesus prayed to be saved!

Us: Well yeah, but the bible also says he was not saved from the cross but was crucified, died and resurrected.

Hakeem: The bible says that Jesus prayed to be saved!

They do the same with the Koran. You can find many passages that call for the subjugation of all non-Muslims, and they will just be hand waved away. Even when you go and grab supporting evidence from what we have of Mohammed's history recorded in the Hadith and in the earliest biographies.

[Bill the Cat]

The answer to the question of Bill the Cat "Since you choose to take the Bible as true in Luke 22:44, then why do you doubt Luke 23:46?" lies in the fact that after all abuses and tortures Jesus received in his trial and after his cry out and after the spear thrust, Pilate was surprised to hear that Jesus died in Mark 15:44 and was in doubt of his alleged death;

Because people usually survived on a cross longer. Pilate wasn't there at the crucifixion, so he would have not known that Jesus had died. Jesus was just one of many insignificant rabble rousers of that time, and the only reason Pilate even cared was that the Jews had made such a big stink. The Bible says He breathed His last. If you are at all consistent, if you accept the words of Luke 22:44 as true, then you must also accept 23:46 where it says He breathed His last. That has nothing to do with Pilate's surprise.

therefore, Pilate asked the centurion to confirm if he was dead in Mark 15:44. Had Jesus been really dead, Pilate would have not doubted and asked the centurion to confirm IF he was dead.

That's so stupid, it actually burns my skin... Neither the Centurion nor Pilate were present at the crucifixion. The Centurion at Pilate's would have checked with the garrison commander over executions to see if the report of Jesus' death were true. And when they were confirmed, the matter was put to rest. He died. End of debate.

In Mark 15:45, we are told "after he confirmed, he granted his body to Joseph" Mark 15:45 tells he confirmed but does not tell us what he confirmed.

Mark 15:45 uses the Greek term πτῶμα (ptōma), which is always used to describe a corpse or a carcass - NEVER a living person.

[Sparko]

The answer to the question of Bill the Cat "Since you choose to take the Bible as true in Luke 22:44, then why do you doubt Luke 23:46?" lies in the fact that after all abuses and tortures Jesus received in his trial and after his cry out and after the spear thrust, Pilate was surprised to hear that Jesus died in Mark 15:44 and was in doubt of his alleged death; therefore, Pilate asked the centurion to confirm if he was dead in Mark 15:44. Had Jesus been really dead, Pilate would have not doubted and asked the centurion to confirm IF he was dead.

In Mark 15:45, we are told "after he confirmed, he granted his body to Joseph" Mark 15:45 tells he confirmed but does not tell us what he confirmed.

The answer to Sparko request "Show where this prayer was granted" is in Jesus own words in Matthew 7:7 "ask and it will be given to you"

The answer to Sparko question "Why do you only accept certain verses of the bible in isolation and reject the rest of the bible that clearly says that Jesus was crucified, died and was resurrected?" is not true. The fact is that when we read the accounts of Jesus trial together, it is evident that he did not die at all and all the Bible does is reporting what others (eyewitnesses & non eyewitnesses) thought Jesus experienced.

For example, Jesus by his own behaviours proved that he did not die at all when he did not appear even once to one of his alleged killers of the Jews in the same flesh and bones. Had he been dead and risen immortally (i.e. resurrected), Jesus SHOULD have appeared to at least one of his alleged killers of the Jews in his 40 days before ascention because he came to the sinners not to the righteous in Mark 2:17. Otherwise, Jews would have surely killed.

Luke 23:44 Now it was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. 45 Then the sun was darkened,[m] and the veil of the temple was torn in two. 46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’”[n] Having said this, He breathed His last.

Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last.

Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

John 21:14
This is now the third time Jesus showed Himself to His disciples after He was raised from the dead.

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

Roman 8:34 It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 6:4 just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

2 Corinthians 5:15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,

Revelation 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

[Same Hakeem]

Bill the Cat writing "Pilate wasn't there at the crucifixion, so he would have not known that Jesus had died" is a mere unsupported assumption.

Bill the Cat writing "The Bible says He breathed His last" is true that he breathed his last but does mean he died in this regard because had Jesus been really dead, Pilate would have not been surprised to hear Jesus died and would have not doubted his death as he asked for confirmation IF he was dead, according to Mark 15:44. Confirmation would have NOT been requested, had Jesus been dead. Pilate doubt is because it is common that the victim of the crucifxion lives for days.

Bill the Cat writing "If you are at all consistent, if you accept the words of Luke 22:44 as true, then you must also accept 23:46 where it says He breathed His last.That has nothing to do with Pilate's surprise" is wrong because had Jesus been really dead, Pilate would not have doubted and would not have been surprised to hear that Jesus that is "It was not common for persons crucified to expire under two or three days, sometimes not until the sixth or seventh." ( Barnes Notes on the Bible on Mark 15:44 at biblehub.com)

[Same Hakeem]

Bill the Cat writing " Mark 15:45 uses the Greek term πτῶμα (ptōma), which is always used to describe a corpse or a carcass - NEVER a living person" is irrelevant because what matters is the fact that the greek word used for Jesus body when laid in the tomb in Luke 23:55 is not PTOMA. Had Jesus been really dead, thd word ptoma that means always dead body should have been used.

[Christianbookworm]

So... you're going with the "Jesus is a Mutant theory"

[Same Hakeem]

Mossrose writing "Blood and serum flowing separately IS a sign that death has occurred" is not true because had Jesus been dead, the greek term (PTOMA) always used for dead body should have used when the body of Jesus was laid in Luke 23:55.

[One Bad Pig]

Mossrose writing "Blood and serum flowing separately IS a sign that death has occurred" is not true because had Jesus been dead, the greek term (PTOMA) always used for dead body should have used when the body of Jesus was laid in Luke 23:55.

You really should quit while you're behind. You're picking nits - badly. Even the rare crucifixion victim taken down from the cross before dying was exceedingly likely to die anyway, as Josephus attests - and that's without taking a killing spear thrust as Jesus did.

[Christianbookworm]

I've heard of super heroes being compared to Jesus, but it's even sillier when people end up giving Jesus super powers in order to claim He didn't really rise from the dead. Pro tip, Jesus is infinitely more awesome than any fictional hero.

[Bill the Cat]

Bill the Cat writing " Mark 15:45 uses the Greek term πτῶμα (ptōma), which is always used to describe a corpse or a carcass - NEVER a living person" is irrelevant because what matters is the fact that the greek word used for Jesus body when laid in the tomb in Luke 23:55 is not PTOMA. Had Jesus been really dead, thd word ptoma that means always dead body should have been used.

The word used in Luk 23:55 is *so'-mah, which is simply means "body". You have lost badly. You really should stop while you are behind. You are just making a fool of yourself.

[rogue06]

Hakeem, at some point you really need to start questioning why the sources you are relying on get just about everything so abysmally wrong

[Same Hakeem]

One Bad Pig writing " Even the rare crucifixion victim taken down from the cross before dying was exceedingly likely to die anyway, as Josephus attests" is not relevant to Jesus case because Jesus was on the cross for less than half a day (i.e. 9 hours) where typical crucifxion takes three days. Therefore, Pilate was surprised to hear that Jesus died. Also, Pilate doubted the alleged death of Jesus and therefore asked for confirmation IF he was dead. Mark 15:44. Mark 15:45 only tells us that* he confirmed. However, we are not told what he confirmed.

*One Bad Pig writing "and that's without taking a killing spear thrust as Jesus did" is true but the fact is that "Blood and water gushed out" proving that his heart was still pumbing and hence he did not die at all. Also, when Jesus body was laid in the tomb in Luke 23:55, the greek word always used for dead body (i.e. Ptoma), so had Jesus body been dead, PTOMA would have been used.

What shows Jesus did not die at all is Jesus behaviors after he came out from tomb. Had really been dead and rise immortally (i.e. resurrected), Jesus SHOULD appeared in his flesh in 40 days before ascention even ONCE to one of his alleged killers of the Jews because Jesus came to the sinners not the righteous in Mark 2:17. But he appeared only to disciples, women and 500 brethren.