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Did Jesus Die on the Cross?

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  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Moderated By: OBP

    Gentlefolk, please do not debate in this thread. A debate thread will be started shortly.

    ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
    Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Hi Truthseeker

    Saying "Jesus was so severely whipped and flayed that people getting similar treatment could have died then or shortly after" is not true because death by crucifixion takes more than one day because death of crucifixion is slow lingering death where victims of crucifixion were frequently tortured beforehand but continued to be alive for days, thus Pilate was surprised to hear that Jesus died in Mark 15:44 because Jesus was on the cross only for 9 hours and continued to be alive after any torture he suffered.

    Saying "About the drink, you failed to note that Jesus tasted it but refused to finish it" is not true because John 19:30 says that Jesus drank it.

    Happy to clarify further.
    Last edited by Same Hakeem; 03-31-2015, 05:39 PM.

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  • Truthseeker
    replied
    Jesus was so severely whipped and flayed that people getting similar treatment could have died then or shortly after. And recall that he was unable to carry part of the cross to Golgotha; a man called Simon was forced to carry the cross.

    About the drink, you failed to note that Jesus tasted it but refused to finish it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Dear all,

    I will prove that Jesus did not die in the process at all from the accounts of the Gospels.

    In this round, I will start with Mark 15:44 where we are told that Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. And the answer to why Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead is because "it was not common for persons crucified to expire under two or three days, sometimes not until the sixth or seventh" according to Barnes' Notes on the Bible because "for death, by crucifixion, was a slow lingering death; persons that were in their full strength hung a great while before they expired" according to Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible. However, Jesus was in fact on the cross for 9 hours; therefore less than half a day.

    In addition, in John 19:29-30, Jesus was given drink and he took it. The reason why Jesus was given drink, which he took it according to John 19:30, is to relieve Jesus from pain and to make him lose consciousness according to the Jewish Encyclopedia under the Article "Crucifixion" which states the following;

    "The details given in the New Testament accounts (Matt. xxvii. and parallels) of the crucifixion of Jesus agree on the whole with the procedure in vogue under Roman law. Two modifications are worthy of note: (1) In order to make him insensible to pain, a drink (ὁξος, Matt. xxvii. 34, 48; John xix. 29) was given him. This was in accordance with the humane Jewish provision (see Maimonides, "Yad," Sanh. xiii. 2; Sanh. 43a). The beverage was a mixture of myrrh () and wine, given "so that the delinquent might lose clear consciousness through the ensuing intoxication." (2) Contrary to the Roman practise of leaving the body on the cross, that of Jesus was removed and buried, the latter act in keeping with Jewish law and custom." In support of the above reasoning for giving Jesus drink is found on John 19:29 Bible commentaries.

    One more reason is that we are told that Jesus legs were not broken in John 19:33 in fulfillment of the Scripture in Psalm 34, which says in verse 20 "he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken" and the reason for not breaking his legs according to the same scripture referred to in John 19:36 (Psalm 34) is found in verse 19 which says "the righteous person may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all;"

    Therefore and at the request of the Pilate in Mark 15:44, the Centurion, in addition to the above cumulative above facts, pierced Jesus side with a spear and blood and water flowed from his side in John 19:34 proving that Jesus did not die when keeping in account that he was on the cross for short period of 9 hours with his legs not broken and drink given to him to relieve him from pain and make him lose consciousness as explained above.

    Therefore, when he found out from the Centurion, Pilate gave the body according to Mark 15:45.


    With the cumulative facts stated above, I submit to you that Jesus did not die at in the process.

    More than happy to clarify any objection of whatsoever.

    Leave a comment:


  • Boxing Pythagoras
    replied
    Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
    I prefer to have 3 rounds for each one of us plus one more for me as the last post since I will begin as I am the one who claims.

    Please confirm otherwise please suggest as you like.
    That seems agreeable enough.

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    I prefer to have 3 rounds for each one of us plus one more for me as the last post since I will begin as I am the one who claims.

    Please confirm otherwise please suggest as you like.

    Leave a comment:


  • Boxing Pythagoras
    replied
    Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
    Yes from the Gospel accounts

    Please let me know how many rounds each should have and if you want me to begin or you want to begin.

    Thanks again.
    I don't think we need any set number of rounds-- I'm perfectly willing to continue responding to any claims or counterarguments you would like. However, if you would prefer some limitation to the number of responses, I suppose that's doable. Just let me know.

    Traditionally, in debates, the person claiming to be able to prove a position presents their argument first. Since you've claimed that you can prove that Jesus did not die from the crucifixion according to the gospel accounts, I'll defer to you to begin the argumentation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    replied
    Yes from the Gospel accounts

    Please let me know how many rounds each should have and if you want me to begin or you want to begin.

    Thanks again.

    Leave a comment:


  • Boxing Pythagoras
    replied
    Originally posted by Hakeem View Post
    I am willing to debate and prove that Jesus did not die in the process from the Gosepl Accounts

    please nominate
    From the gospel accounts? I'd be willing to enter into that discussion. I look forward to your argumentation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Same Hakeem
    started a topic Did Jesus Die on the Cross?

    Did Jesus Die on the Cross?

    I am willing to debate and prove that Jesus did not die in the process from the Gosepl Accounts

    please nominate
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