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This is the place for quiet meditations and reflections. No debate is permitted, and we ask that the fact that this is a Christian-owned site be respected in that the majority of the spiritual reflections expressed here will be Christian in perspective. We ask that mediations that are blatantly unorthodox or contrary to Christianity not be posted. Respectful interaction and posting by those of other beliefs is permitted. Moderators are given wide discretion and latitude as to the appropriateness of posts in this area.

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I'm the Dummy

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  • #46
    Originally posted by myth View Post
    I'm sorry, but I asked for examples of music that points to the person singing and not God.Those songs are admittedly light on theology, but how do they point to the person singing and not God? The last one is ambiguous, sure. But the other two clearly have multiple references to God. Based on the lyrical content along, how is singing of God's love (for example) pointing towards ourselves? How is it even bad?

    You have a personal preference, and that's fine. But you have yet to explain why church music MUST teach complex or "deep" theology, as you call it. I don't think it has to, as that's what the sermon and Bible study are for. I'm not arguing that heresy should be permitted. Far from it. But this seems to be a case of a judgmental attitude for music that isn't your preference, and you've yet to provide any sort of scriptural references for why your preferences are even better, let alone "right" as opposed to "wrong".

    It's ok to have you own preferences for worship, but you're assuming your preference is better because of....well, no particular reason that I can see. Sort of like when a deacon in my old church called Christian rock music "demon music". Like...for real? They're literally singing about what God has done in their lives, but because it doesn't sound like country music it's "demon music".
    The second song I posted is an example of me-focused worship. If you can't see it, then I am afraid nothing I post will satisfy you.

    However, here's another.

    Deep Cries Out

    I've got a river of living water
    A fountain that never will run dry
    It's open Heavens You're releasing
    And we will never be denied

    Cause we're stirring up deep deep wells
    We're stirring up deep deep waters
    We're going to dance in the river, dance in the river
    Cause we're stirring up deep deep wells
    We're stirring up deep deep waters
    We're going to jump in the river
    Jump in the river and everybody singing now

    Deep cries out to deep cries out to
    Deep cries out to deep cries out to
    So we cry out to, we cry out to, You Jesus

    We're falling into deeper waters, calling out to You
    We're walking into deeper waters, going after You

    If He goes to the left then we'll go to the left
    And if He goes to the right then we'll go to the right
    We're going to jump jump jump jump in the river
    Jump jump jump jump, everybody
    If He goes to the left then we'll go to the left
    And if He goes to the right then we'll go to the right
    We're going to dance dance, dance dance in the river
    Dance dance, dance dance, everybody
    If He goes to the left then we'll go to the left
    And if He goes to the right then we'll go to the right
    We're going to shout shout shout shout in the river
    Shout shout shout shout in the river, everybody


    Or how about The Drinking Song?

    If you feel too serious and kind of blue
    I've got a suggestion, just the thing for you!
    Its a little unconventional, but so much more fun,
    That you wont even mind when people think you're dumb!
    Just come to the party God is throwing right now,
    We can all lighten up and show the pagans how
    Christians have more fun and keep everyone guessing,
    Since the Holy Ghost sent us the Toronto Blessing!
    I used to think life was serious stuff
    I wouldn't dare cry, and I acted kind of tough
    Until Gods Spirit put laughter in my soul,
    Now the Holy Ghosts got me and I'm out of control!
    Now I'm just a party animal grazing at Gods trough,
    I'm a Jesus Junkie, and I cant get enough!
    I'm an alcoholic for that great New Wine,
    Cause the Holy Ghost is pouring, and I'm drinking all the time!
    I just laugh like an idiot and bark like a dog,
    If I don't sober up, I'll likely hop like a frog!
    I'll crow like a rooster at the break of day,
    Cause the Holy Ghost is moving, and I cant stay away!
    I'll roar like a lioness who's on the prowl,
    I'll laugh and shake, maybe hoot like an owl!
    Since Gods holy river started bubbling in me,
    It spills outside, and now its setting me free!
    So, I'll crunch and I'll dip and I'll dance round and round,
    The pew was fine, but its more fun on the ground!
    So I'll jump like a pogo stick, then fall to the floor,
    Cause the Holy Ghost is moving, and I just want MORE!


    I'm pretty sure you can find a bunch if you try.

    However, it appears your preference is not the same as mine, so you might actually like some of these horrendous songs. Have at it.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      I personally dislike modern worship music but I don't get the argument that it's bad *because* the style is modern and that organ music is inherently better. Organ music was new at one point in time, too. Organs were not around at the time of Christ.

      If the issue is with the lyrical content, I'm in full agreement there. However, I do note that some contemporary musicians like Sons of Korah seem to have adopted lyrics taken directly from Psalms, which I don't think anybody should object to. (They don't seem to be the majority.)

      One argument that's not terrible that Patheos blogger Jonathan Aigner promotes is that the organ is specially designed to carry throughout the combination without drowning out the voice of the congregation, whereas the guitar is not. I think that's actually a decent argument for traditional worship. (He does allow that small churches that can't afford an organ are fine in using what they can afford.)
      Aigner is such a snotty snark, I'd like to give his face a good going over with a whiffle-ball bat.

      In Christian love, of course.
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

      Beige Federalist.

      Nationalist Christian.

      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

      Justice for Matthew Perna!

      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

      Comment


      • #48
        Since "God hasn't changed," why doesn't every church employ the kind of "P&W" that appears in Psa. 149-150 -- with shouting and dancing, and instruments that are more or less the early equivalent of those used by modern "rock" bands?
        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

        Beige Federalist.

        Nationalist Christian.

        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

        Justice for Matthew Perna!

        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
          Since "God hasn't changed," why doesn't every church employ the kind of "P&W" that appears in Psa. 149-150 -- with shouting and dancing, and instruments that are more or less the early equivalent of those used by modern "rock" bands?
          Because there are no instruments listed in the New Testament associated with worship!

          (that's from my Church of Christ buddy)
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #50
            I'm trying to find the source of the quote (Spurgeon?) - "when God cast Satan out of Heaven, he landed right in the Church Choir loft!"
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #51
              I like both modern and traditional hymns. sue me.

              One of my favorite modern hymns is "Awesome God"

              It may not be all that full of theology but it does cover some bible history, and I like it nonetheless.

              Awesome God
              Rich Mullins

              When He rolls up His sleeves
              He ain't just putting on the ritz
              (Our God is an awesome God)

              There's thunder in His footsteps
              And lightning in His fists
              (Our God is an awesome God)

              And the Lord wasn't joking
              When He kicked 'em out of Eden
              It wasn't for no reason
              That He shed His blood
              His return is very close
              And so you better be believing that
              Our God is an awesome God

              Our God is an awesome God
              He reigns from heaven above
              With wisdom, power, and love
              Our God is an awesome God

              Our God is an awesome God
              He reigns from heaven above
              With wisdom, power, and love
              Our God is an awesome God

              And when the sky was starless
              In the void of the night
              (Our God is an awesome God)

              He spoke into the darkness
              And created the light
              (Our God is an awesome God)

              Judgement and wrath He poured out on the Sodom
              Mercy and grace He gave us at the cross
              I hope that you have not
              Too quickly forgotten that
              Our God is an awesome God

              Our God is an awesome God
              He reigns from heaven above
              With wisdom, power, and love
              Our God is an awesome God

              Our God is an awesome God
              He reigns from heaven above
              With wisdom, power, and love
              Our God is an awesome God

              Our God is an awesome God
              He reigns from heaven above
              With wisdom, power, and love
              Our God is an awesome God

              Our God is an awesome God
              He reigns from heaven above
              With wisdom, power, and love
              Our God is an awesome God

              Our God is an awesome God (Our God is an awesome God)
              He reigns from heaven above (He reigns from heaven above)
              With wisdom, power, and love (With wisdom, power, and love)
              Our God is an awesome God

              Our God is an awesome God
              Our God is an awesome God

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                I like both modern and traditional hymns. sue me...
                I think what's missing here is that the music should be supportive of the preaching.
                It is the preaching of the Word that God has chosen to reach men.

                This idea of calling the music leader the "worship leader" is nuts, IMOHBAO. "Worship" is singing, hearing the Word, praying, giving, loving, sharing...

                Too many people "find a church" based on the style of music, using that as a more important factor than the preaching of the Word.
                If the preaching of the Word is not sound - or is UNSOUND - that should be a major factor.

                I've heard people say things like "I put up with the music because I love the preaching" or "I love the music, so I put up with the preaching"...

                There needs to be a "both".
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  I think what's missing here is that the music should be supportive of the preaching.
                  It is the preaching of the Word that God has chosen to reach men.

                  This idea of calling the music leader the "worship leader" is nuts, IMOHBAO. "Worship" is singing, hearing the Word, praying, giving, loving, sharing...

                  Too many people "find a church" based on the style of music, using that as a more important factor than the preaching of the Word.
                  If the preaching of the Word is not sound - or is UNSOUND - that should be a major factor.

                  I've heard people say things like "I put up with the music because I love the preaching" or "I love the music, so I put up with the preaching"...

                  There needs to be a "both".

                  My pastor has said that he would like it better if the music came at the end of the service following the message as an outpouring of praise for the opening of God's word instead of at the beginning.


                  Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Because there are no instruments listed in the New Testament associated with worship!

                    (that's from my Church of Christ buddy)
                    And that's exactly correct. There is no prohibition in scripture about what instruments can and cannot be used. Every age uses the instruments available. Our church sometimes uses a full orchestra, sometimes a smaller ensemble, and sometimes only the piano and pipe organ. All are appropriate and all are used in a manner that adds to the music, not overpower it and become just a raucous din.

                    Remember, God is a God of order, not of chaos, and some "music" is pure chaos.
                    Last edited by mossrose; 05-04-2020, 10:05 AM.


                    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                      Aigner is such a snotty snark, I'd like to give his face a good going over with a whiffle-ball bat.

                      In Christian love, of course.
                      But he's the only person I've actually seen give a real reason for preferring organ music (as opposed to nonsense about drum beats killing houseplants or being related to African fol religion).

                      Ultimately, I feel like to make a church decision based on my personal dislike of rock-based worship would be putting my own personal preferences first and ultimately selfish, so I choose to put up with it because the preaching is solid and my family fits in well with a sense of community.
                      Last edited by KingsGambit; 05-04-2020, 10:03 AM.
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        My pastor has said that he would like it better if the music came at the end of the service following the message as an outpouring of praise for the opening of God's word instead of at the beginning.
                        I've heard that from other pastors, as well - maybe a "call to worship" song, the preaching, then the celebration.

                        I'm just old fashioned, I guess -- I like to start off with some joyful music, and progress into something worshipful before the sermon, then a celebration kind of song on the way out.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          I think what's missing here is that the music should be supportive of the preaching.
                          It is the preaching of the Word that God has chosen to reach men.

                          This idea of calling the music leader the "worship leader" is nuts, IMOHBAO. "Worship" is singing, hearing the Word, praying, giving, loving, sharing...

                          Too many people "find a church" based on the style of music, using that as a more important factor than the preaching of the Word.
                          If the preaching of the Word is not sound - or is UNSOUND - that should be a major factor.

                          I've heard people say things like "I put up with the music because I love the preaching" or "I love the music, so I put up with the preaching"...

                          There needs to be a "both".
                          Yeah I never liked the whole bit about calling the singing part of a service the "worship service" - worshiping is so much more than singing songs. Singing is praise and it is worship, but only a small part of worshiping God.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            I've heard that from other pastors, as well - maybe a "call to worship" song, the preaching, then the celebration.

                            I'm just old fashioned, I guess -- I like to start off with some joyful music, and progress into something worshipful before the sermon, then a celebration kind of song on the way out.

                            And that's still how our church does it, too.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Because there are no instruments listed in the New Testament associated with worship!

                              (that's from my Church of Christ buddy)
                              But there are in Psalms.

                              Psalm 150

                              Praise the Lord.

                              Praise God in his sanctuary;
                              praise him in his mighty heavens.
                              2 Praise him for his acts of power;
                              praise him for his surpassing greatness.
                              3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
                              praise him with the harp and lyre,
                              4 praise him with timbrel and dancing,
                              praise him with the strings and pipe,
                              5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
                              praise him with resounding cymbals.

                              6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.

                              Praise the Lord.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                But there are in Psalms.

                                Psalm 150

                                Praise the Lord.

                                Praise God in his sanctuary;
                                praise him in his mighty heavens.
                                2 Praise him for his acts of power;
                                praise him for his surpassing greatness.
                                3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
                                praise him with the harp and lyre,
                                4 praise him with timbrel and dancing,
                                praise him with the strings and pipe,
                                5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
                                praise him with resounding cymbals.

                                6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.

                                Praise the Lord.
                                Yes, my Church of Christ friends use exactly that to show that - in the Old Testament, there were those instruments, but in the New Testament, there are none listed in worship.

                                I like to use the following illustration:

                                You're my employee and I instruct you to dig a hole 6 feet deep and 6 feet in diameter.
                                After you get started, I come out and yell at you because you are using shovels, a pick axe, a wheelbarrow....
                                I never TOLD you to use TOOLS!!!!

                                That's pretty much what, in my opinion, this Church of Christ thing is --- an argument from silence.


                                By the way --- I actually had a guy argue that HIS New Testament (as printed) included Psalms and Proverbs!
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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