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Good Friday Service

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    He points out that he had been part of this ritual for over 50 years, and nobody could tell him with confidence what that "broken and hidden" bread symbolized.
    When he became a Christian, he was startled by the implication that it was, indeed, the body of Christ, buried and risen again.
    We, many times, do much from tradition without realizing the deeper meanings behind what we do. But what an eye-opener for a Christian Jew!


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

      Yup, and we have a Jewish friend whose ministry we support who has, in the past, done a "Christ in the Passover" presentation.

      He focuses on the Afikomen - that middle bread that is broken and hidden for later "discovery", as you said, to be "Resurrected" as a symbol of Resurrection Sunday Morning.
      There was a guy named Rev. Tom Huckel who came to my dad's church when I was in high school and did a presentation on "Messiah in the Feasts of Israel". It was very informative. IIRC he also pointed that out. I have his presentations on VHS, but I think my VCR quit on me.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #18
        My current (liturgical, observes it every Sunday) church had a Communion service on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, but not on the Thursday or Friday services.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          There was a guy named Rev. Tom Huckel who came to my dad's church when I was in high school and did a presentation on "Messiah in the Feasts of Israel". It was very informative. IIRC he also pointed that out. I have his presentations on VHS, but I think my VCR quit on me.
          This guy?

          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

            This guy?

            That's him!
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              That's him!
              I believe I encountered him in my parents' church in Ohio way back when.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                So.... I learned something today.
                Fr. Stephen: This raises the question about the relationship between the Eucharist and the Passover seder as such.

                Fr. Andrew: Is it just a seder? Or is it derived from the seder? Some people say that. And then also you get some, particularly some Evangelical Christians, they will do both a communion ritual, and they will also sometimes hold seders, maybe invite the local rabbi or do it themselves.

                Fr. Stephen: The answer is No, to all of that. Just no. [Laughter]

                Fr. Andrew: It’s not a seder.

                Fr. Stephen: Nope. Don’t do that.

                Fr. Andrew: And we’ll mention why there seem to be some similarities between the two in just a second, because it’s not that there’s nothing similar between the two, but we’ll talk about why!

                Fr. Stephen: Right, and so right off the bat, in terms of whether the Mystical Supper or the Last Supper, the meal at which Christ instituted the Eucharist, wasn’t a seder is that it’s the wrong day of the week. St. John’s gospel especially makes explicit that Christ died at the time they were killing the lambs.

                Fr. Andrew: Yeah, and to do a seder you have to have a lamb already ready to go.

                Fr. Stephen: Yeah. Doesn’t match up. So, that said, What meal is this, then? What kind of meal is this? Because Christ sends the apostles: “Get this room,” gives them the sign and everything of “Here’s how you find the room. Go get this room. We’re going to eat the Passover together.” Well, this is a kind of meal which is described in the book of Deuteronomy.

                Fr. Andrew: Yes, not one of the ones that people seem to know; it’s not quite as famous, but it’s related to all of this. Yeah, Deuteronomy 14:22-26, you get this commandment from God:
                You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that shall come from your field by year. And before the Lord your God, in the place that he will choose to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and your firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you because the place is too far from you which the Lord your God chooses to set his name there, then you shall turn it into money, and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses, and spend the money for whatever you desire: oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household.

                Fr. Stephen: Right. So this is talking about the annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

                Fr. Andrew: Yeah, I’m noting where it says, “the place the Lord your God chooses,” which— Literally that’s what happens there.

                Fr. Stephen: And makes his name dwell there in the Temple. And so this is also, for the record, Deuteronomy 14:26—mark this down—this is the place where God tells you to buy liquor. Sorry, Baptists.

                Fr. Andrew: [Laughter] Yeah, because it makes the distinction between “wine” and “strong drink.”

                Fr. Stephen: Yes, wine or strong drink. So don’t tell me the wine is grape juice, because it’s not that strong.

                Fr. Andrew: Some really strong Welch’s tonight, honey!

                Fr. Stephen: This is fermented drink. So, sorry to our Baptist listeners, but this is in the Bible.

                Fr. Andrew: It’s true.

                Fr. Stephen: And so this is the kind of meal they’re having. This is: we made our pilgrimage, and we’re going to eat and drink before the Lord. This is kind of reference, a little bit sub rosa in the text, like where Christ says he will not drink of the fruit of the vine again until he comes in his kingdom, that this is sort of a celebratory type of meal. Now, it doesn’t come out celebratory because Christ announces his betrayal, but…

                Fr. Andrew: Yeah, kind of a dark turn at the end—Judas. Looking at you, Judas! [Laughter]

                Fr. Stephen: But it was intended to be. One of the things with the… So that said, if it isn’t a seder, if you’ve been to one of these presentations or read an article written by somebody—and this is very common, as Fr. Andrew said, in the Evangelical world now—drawing all these connections between the Eucharist and the Passover seder, including things that are said and that kind of thing.

                Fr. Andrew: Yeah, specific ritual connections.

                Fr. Stephen: Here’s an audio footnote. A good place to go to learn more about this history is [Israel Yuval], who’s a Jewish scholar who’s written a lot about this. There’s some lectures he’s given that are on YouTube. He says provocative things like Christianity preceded Judaism. That’s half click-baity. I mean, he’s pointing at something real, but that’s being click-baity by him. [Laughter] But one of the things he points out relevant to what we’re talking about here is that actually a lot of the practices within the seder as it’s now often celebrated actually went the other way. It’s not that the Christian practice is based on the seder; it’s that what’s in the seder is a sort of response to the Christian practice.

                Fr. Andrew: Yeah, because if you look at what the Scriptures actually say about how to do this meal, it doesn’t include some of the stuff that gets pointed to as being the links between this meal and the Eucharist.

                Fr. Stephen: Right, there’s actually very little in terms of actual ritual liturgics for the meal in the Torah, for example, so the specifics have sort of spun off later. One example that [Yuval] gives is the practice of lifting the unleavened bread and saying something on the order of “This is the bread of our suffering.” And people say, “Oh, look! Christ lifted the bread and said, ‘This is my body, broken for you,’ like suffering.” It actually went the other way. It actually went the other way, and—

                Fr. Andrew: Influence of Christianity on Judaism.

                Fr. Stephen: Right, or at least Judaism, in part, defining itself over against Christianity. So it’s about the suffering of the nation of Israel in Egypt and later, rather than about the suffering of Jesus, for example, here. Ironically, a lot of the “Christian things” people are seeing in the seder are actually responses to Christianity, not the origins of Christian practice. They’re responses to Christian practice.

                As I just mentioned, and an obvious point of discontinuity, if you’re familiar with Orthodox practice, at least, that when we celebrate the Eucharist we use leavened bread—

                Fr. Andrew: Yeah, risen bread.

                Fr. Stephen: —and Passover is very deliberately unleavened bread. [Laughter] This is because this is a reflection for us—in addition to just being the correct way to do it. This is a reflection for us of the fact that— of Christ’s resurrection.

                Fr. Andrew: Risen bread for the risen Christ.

                Fr. Stephen: Right, and that’s not just being punny. [Laughter] But the idea is that we’re not just focusing in the Eucharist on Christ’s suffering or just on his death, but on his resurrection as well. And his resurrection is celebratory. The unleavened bread is the bread of suffering. You bake unleavened bread because you’re about to go on the run from the Egyptians.

                Fr. Andrew: Yeah, you need something that’s not going to go bad.

                Fr. Stephen: And you don’t have time to let anything rise. [Laughter] You’ve got to get going.

                Fr. Andrew: So the Eucharist is not a participation in Jesus’ last seder, as we just said. So that’s not why it’s not unleavened.

                Fr. Stephen: It’s that and his resurrection, and that resurrection element of the Eucharist is absolutely key. Absolutely key.

                Fr. Andrew: Yeah, because his resurrection is what changes the Passover into what it becomes in Christian practice.

                Not only is the Last Supper not a seder, but the common elements between them are actually Jewish adaptations of the seder to respond to Christian practice.

                source
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  So.... I learned something today.
                  Fr. Stephen: This raises the question about the relationship between the Eucharist and the Passover seder as such.

                  Fr. Andrew: Is it just a seder? Or is it derived from the seder? Some people say that. And then also you get some, particularly some Evangelical Christians, they will do both a communion ritual, and they will also sometimes hold seders, maybe invite the local rabbi or do it themselves.

                  Fr. Stephen: The answer is No, to all of that. Just no. [Laughter]

                  Fr. Andrew: It’s not a seder.

                  Fr. Stephen: Nope. Don’t do that.

                  Fr. Andrew: And we’ll mention why there seem to be some similarities between the two in just a second, because it’s not that there’s nothing similar between the two, but we’ll talk about why!

                  Fr. Stephen: Right, and so right off the bat, in terms of whether the Mystical Supper or the Last Supper, the meal at which Christ instituted the Eucharist, wasn’t a seder is that it’s the wrong day of the week. St. John’s gospel especially makes explicit that Christ died at the time they were killing the lambs.

                  Fr. Andrew: Yeah, and to do a seder you have to have a lamb already ready to go.

                  Fr. Stephen: Yeah. Doesn’t match up. So, that said, What meal is this, then? What kind of meal is this? Because Christ sends the apostles: “Get this room,” gives them the sign and everything of “Here’s how you find the room. Go get this room. We’re going to eat the Passover together.” Well, this is a kind of meal which is described in the book of Deuteronomy.

                  Fr. Andrew: Yes, not one of the ones that people seem to know; it’s not quite as famous, but it’s related to all of this. Yeah, Deuteronomy 14:22-26, you get this commandment from God:
                  You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that shall come from your field by year. And before the Lord your God, in the place that he will choose to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and your firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you because the place is too far from you which the Lord your God chooses to set his name there, then you shall turn it into money, and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses, and spend the money for whatever you desire: oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household.

                  Fr. Stephen: Right. So this is talking about the annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

                  Fr. Andrew: Yeah, I’m noting where it says, “the place the Lord your God chooses,” which— Literally that’s what happens there.

                  Fr. Stephen: And makes his name dwell there in the Temple. And so this is also, for the record, Deuteronomy 14:26—mark this down—this is the place where God tells you to buy liquor. Sorry, Baptists.

                  Fr. Andrew: [Laughter] Yeah, because it makes the distinction between “wine” and “strong drink.”

                  Fr. Stephen: Yes, wine or strong drink. So don’t tell me the wine is grape juice, because it’s not that strong.

                  Fr. Andrew: Some really strong Welch’s tonight, honey!

                  Fr. Stephen: This is fermented drink. So, sorry to our Baptist listeners, but this is in the Bible.

                  Fr. Andrew: It’s true.

                  Fr. Stephen: And so this is the kind of meal they’re having. This is: we made our pilgrimage, and we’re going to eat and drink before the Lord. This is kind of reference, a little bit sub rosa in the text, like where Christ says he will not drink of the fruit of the vine again until he comes in his kingdom, that this is sort of a celebratory type of meal. Now, it doesn’t come out celebratory because Christ announces his betrayal, but…

                  Fr. Andrew: Yeah, kind of a dark turn at the end—Judas. Looking at you, Judas! [Laughter]

                  Fr. Stephen: But it was intended to be. One of the things with the… So that said, if it isn’t a seder, if you’ve been to one of these presentations or read an article written by somebody—and this is very common, as Fr. Andrew said, in the Evangelical world now—drawing all these connections between the Eucharist and the Passover seder, including things that are said and that kind of thing.

                  Fr. Andrew: Yeah, specific ritual connections.

                  Fr. Stephen: Here’s an audio footnote. A good place to go to learn more about this history is [Israel Yuval], who’s a Jewish scholar who’s written a lot about this. There’s some lectures he’s given that are on YouTube. He says provocative things like Christianity preceded Judaism. That’s half click-baity. I mean, he’s pointing at something real, but that’s being click-baity by him. [Laughter] But one of the things he points out relevant to what we’re talking about here is that actually a lot of the practices within the seder as it’s now often celebrated actually went the other way. It’s not that the Christian practice is based on the seder; it’s that what’s in the seder is a sort of response to the Christian practice.

                  Fr. Andrew: Yeah, because if you look at what the Scriptures actually say about how to do this meal, it doesn’t include some of the stuff that gets pointed to as being the links between this meal and the Eucharist.

                  Fr. Stephen: Right, there’s actually very little in terms of actual ritual liturgics for the meal in the Torah, for example, so the specifics have sort of spun off later. One example that [Yuval] gives is the practice of lifting the unleavened bread and saying something on the order of “This is the bread of our suffering.” And people say, “Oh, look! Christ lifted the bread and said, ‘This is my body, broken for you,’ like suffering.” It actually went the other way. It actually went the other way, and—

                  Fr. Andrew: Influence of Christianity on Judaism.

                  Fr. Stephen: Right, or at least Judaism, in part, defining itself over against Christianity. So it’s about the suffering of the nation of Israel in Egypt and later, rather than about the suffering of Jesus, for example, here. Ironically, a lot of the “Christian things” people are seeing in the seder are actually responses to Christianity, not the origins of Christian practice. They’re responses to Christian practice.

                  As I just mentioned, and an obvious point of discontinuity, if you’re familiar with Orthodox practice, at least, that when we celebrate the Eucharist we use leavened bread—

                  Fr. Andrew: Yeah, risen bread.

                  Fr. Stephen: —and Passover is very deliberately unleavened bread. [Laughter] This is because this is a reflection for us—in addition to just being the correct way to do it. This is a reflection for us of the fact that— of Christ’s resurrection.

                  Fr. Andrew: Risen bread for the risen Christ.

                  Fr. Stephen: Right, and that’s not just being punny. [Laughter] But the idea is that we’re not just focusing in the Eucharist on Christ’s suffering or just on his death, but on his resurrection as well. And his resurrection is celebratory. The unleavened bread is the bread of suffering. You bake unleavened bread because you’re about to go on the run from the Egyptians.

                  Fr. Andrew: Yeah, you need something that’s not going to go bad.

                  Fr. Stephen: And you don’t have time to let anything rise. [Laughter] You’ve got to get going.

                  Fr. Andrew: So the Eucharist is not a participation in Jesus’ last seder, as we just said. So that’s not why it’s not unleavened.

                  Fr. Stephen: It’s that and his resurrection, and that resurrection element of the Eucharist is absolutely key. Absolutely key.

                  Fr. Andrew: Yeah, because his resurrection is what changes the Passover into what it becomes in Christian practice.

                  Not only is the Last Supper not a seder, but the common elements between them are actually Jewish adaptations of the seder to respond to Christian practice.

                  source
                  This more or less matches up with what I've heard from a Jewish acquaintance (whose motivation is more along the lines of being offended with what is perceived of Christian appropriation of Jewish customs, and I don't think they get to have veto power over what we do, so it is good to have some confirmation from an explicitly Christian source here).
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Recently, I had several people expressing their desire to have a Good Friday Service.
                    I had never ever presided over one, nor even attended one.

                    I decided we'd give it a try, though I actually wondered if it would end up being just a small crowd.

                    To my surprise, it was quite well attended, and the service went exceptionally well, I thought.
                    We dealt with the Seven Sayings From the Cross, leading up to serving Communion.

                    It was all done as a somber type of service, as though we were Christ followers in Jesus' day, not yet knowing that Jesus would come back from the dead.
                    I had suggested at the beginning of the service that, as we finish, we leave the building quietly.

                    I was quite impressed that, after receiving communion and a final prayer, everybody, indeed, left quietly and reverently, anticipating Resurrection Sunday Morning.
                    I'm glad you gave it a try, and it was such a blessing to those who attended. One of things I have missed while attending non-denominational churches is the lack of attention to the church calendar. Christmas and Easter tend to sneak up on you since Advent and Lent don't get mentioned. I guess the argument is some combination of it isn't in the Bible and it's too Catholic. I can get the argument that some people just attend without it really being meaningful. Usually, I was blessed by these observances and services.
                    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                      I'm glad you gave it a try, and it was such a blessing to those who attended. One of things I have missed while attending non-denominational churches is the lack of attention to the church calendar. Christmas and Easter tend to sneak up on you since Advent and Lent don't get mentioned. I guess the argument is some combination of it isn't in the Bible and it's too Catholic. I can get the argument that some people just attend without it really being meaningful. Usually, I was blessed by these observances and services.
                      And, about 10 or 11 years ago, I came to that same conclusion.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Recently, I had several people expressing their desire to have a Good Friday Service.
                        I had never ever presided over one, nor even attended one.

                        I decided we'd give it a try, though I actually wondered if it would end up being just a small crowd.

                        To my surprise, it was quite well attended, and the service went exceptionally well, I thought.
                        We dealt with the Seven Sayings From the Cross, leading up to serving Communion.

                        It was all done as a somber type of service, as though we were Christ followers in Jesus' day, not yet knowing that Jesus would come back from the dead.
                        I had suggested at the beginning of the service that, as we finish, we leave the building quietly.

                        I was quite impressed that, after receiving communion and a final prayer, everybody, indeed, left quietly and reverently, anticipating Resurrection Sunday Morning.
                        I must admit this is one of my favorite things in the Catholic Church. We leave the church in silence, with no closing hymn during Lent. On holy week this takes on a greater significance as Thursday we are to spend one hour after mass in church in prayer, the intention is to contemplate the one hour Jesus asked the disciples to spend with him in the garden. on Good Friday we contemplate the cross. Its so very powerful.
                        A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                        George Bernard Shaw

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