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This is the place for quiet meditations and reflections. No debate is permitted, and we ask that the fact that this is a Christian-owned site be respected in that the majority of the spiritual reflections expressed here will be Christian in perspective. We ask that mediations that are blatantly unorthodox or contrary to Christianity not be posted. Respectful interaction and posting by those of other beliefs is permitted. Moderators are given wide discretion and latitude as to the appropriateness of posts in this area.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post


    Jesus + baptism doesn't save. The water in itself is ineffectual, but through the words of Jesus it becomes an instrument of salvation where the Holy Spirit works.

    Jesus saves through baptism and faith.

    Or atleast, that's what we Lutherans believe.
    Jesus doesn't save through baptism. He saves by grace, through faith. If baptism had any part in salvation then that means that the atoning work of Christ on the cross is not sufficient to redeem mankind.

    This is exactly why Paul wrote his scathing letter to the Galatians refuting the false prophets who came to the Galatian believers and told them that they needed to all be circumcised in order to be proper Christians. Not one iota of their salvation depended on the work of circumcision, and not one iota of our salvation depends on the work of baptism or communion or any other thing.

    If Lutherans believe as you say then they are far, far away from Martin Luther's doctrine of grace and faith and NOT works that he found by studying scripture.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
      Jesus doesn't save through baptism. He saves by grace, through faith. If baptism had any part in salvation then that means that the atoning work of Christ on the cross is not sufficient to redeem mankind.
      That's a false dichotomy. It's not that Christ's work on the cross isn't sufficient, but rather that baptism is the way that Christ has decided that the benefits of his sacrifice on the cross are to be imputed to us (oh, and we're also born anew and given the Spirit through baptism).

      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
      This is exactly why Paul wrote his scathing letter to the Galatians refuting the false prophets who came to the Galatian believers and told them that they needed to all be circumcised in order to be proper Christians. Not one iota of their salvation depended on the work of circumcision, and not one iota of our salvation depends on the work of baptism or communion or any other thing.
      Baptism isn't a work. It's an act of faith. If it is a work it's a work done by God, not the one baptizing, or the one being baptized.

      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
      If Lutherans believe as you say then they are far, far away from Martin Luther's doctrine of grace and faith and NOT works that he found by studying scripture.
      Here's Luther's own words on baptism, taken from the Luther's Large Catechism:

      Source: Large Catechism, Holy Baptism


      1] We have now finished the three chief parts of the common Christian doctrine. Besides these we have yet to speak of our two Sacraments instituted by Christ, of which also every Christian ought to have at least an ordinary, brief instruction, because without them there can be no Christian; although, alas! hitherto no instruction concerning them has been given. 2] But, in the first place, we take up Baptism, by which we are first received into the Christian Church. However, in order that it may be readily understood, we will treat of it in an orderly manner, and keep only to that which it is necessary for us to know. For how it is to be maintained and defended against heretics and sects we will commend to the learned.

      3] In the first place, we must above all things know well the words upon which Baptism is founded, and to which everything refers that is to be said on the subject, namely, where the Lord Christ speaks in Matthew 28:19:

      4] Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

      Likewise in St. Mark 16:16: 5] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

      6] In these words you must note, in the first place, that here stand God's commandment and institution, lest we doubt that Baptism is divine, not devised nor invented by men. For as truly as I can say, No man has spun the Ten Commandments, the Creed, and the Lord's Prayer out of his head, but they are revealed and given by God Himself, so also I can boast that Baptism is no human trifle, but instituted by God Himself, moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved, lest any one regard it as a trifling matter, like putting on a new red coat. 7] For it is of the greatest importance that we esteem Baptism 8] excellent, glorious, and exalted, for which we contend and fight chiefly, because the world is now so full of sects clamoring that Baptism is an external thing, and that external things are of no benefit. But let it be ever so much an external thing, here stand God's Word and command which institute, establish, and confirm Baptism. But what God institutes and commands cannot be a vain, but must be a most precious thing, though in appearance it were of less value than a straw. 9] If hitherto people could consider it a great thing when the Pope with his letters and bulls dispensed indulgences and confirmed altars and churches, solely because of the letters and seals, we ought to esteem Baptism much more highly and more precious, because God has commanded it, and, besides, it is performed in His name. For these are the words, Go ye, baptize; however, not in your name, but in the name of God.

      10] For to be baptized in the name of God is to be baptized not by men, but by God Himself. Therefore, although it is performed by human hands, it is nevertheless truly God's own work. From this fact every one may himself readily infer that it is a far higher work than any work performed by a man or a saint. For what work greater than the work of God can we do?

      © Copyright Original Source



      http://bookofconcord.org/lc-6-baptism.php if anyone wants to read further.
      ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
        That's a false dichotomy. It's not that Christ's work on the cross isn't sufficient, but rather that baptism is the way that Christ has decided that the benefits of his sacrifice on the cross are to be imputed to us (oh, and we're also born anew and given the Spirit through baptism).
        Because, of course, that's how the Apostles and other believers had the Spirit given at Pentecost. I see it now!



        I received the Spirit the moment I believed. And I grew up in a denomination that taught otherwise.

        Baptism isn't a work. It's an act of faith. If it is a work it's a work done by God, not the one baptizing, or the one being baptized.
        Do course it's a work. God doesn't pick us up and dip us in the water. We get down in there ourselves! It is a work of obedience, but doing it adds nothing to salvation.





        Here's Luther's own words on baptism, taken from the Luther's Large Catechism:

        Source: Large Catechism, Holy Baptism


        1] We have now finished the three chief parts of the common Christian doctrine. Besides these we have yet to speak of our two Sacraments instituted by Christ, of which also every Christian ought to have at least an ordinary, brief instruction, because without them there can be no Christian; although, alas! hitherto no instruction concerning them has been given. 2] But, in the first place, we take up Baptism, by which we are first received into the Christian Church. However, in order that it may be readily understood, we will treat of it in an orderly manner, and keep only to that which it is necessary for us to know. For how it is to be maintained and defended against heretics and sects we will commend to the learned.

        3] In the first place, we must above all things know well the words upon which Baptism is founded, and to which everything refers that is to be said on the subject, namely, where the Lord Christ speaks in Matthew 28:19:

        4] Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

        Likewise in St. Mark 16:16: 5] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

        6] In these words you must note, in the first place, that here stand God's commandment and institution, lest we doubt that Baptism is divine, not devised nor invented by men. For as truly as I can say, No man has spun the Ten Commandments, the Creed, and the Lord's Prayer out of his head, but they are revealed and given by God Himself, so also I can boast that Baptism is no human trifle, but instituted by God Himself, moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved, lest any one regard it as a trifling matter, like putting on a new red coat. 7] For it is of the greatest importance that we esteem Baptism 8] excellent, glorious, and exalted, for which we contend and fight chiefly, because the world is now so full of sects clamoring that Baptism is an external thing, and that external things are of no benefit. But let it be ever so much an external thing, here stand God's Word and command which institute, establish, and confirm Baptism. But what God institutes and commands cannot be a vain, but must be a most precious thing, though in appearance it were of less value than a straw. 9] If hitherto people could consider it a great thing when the Pope with his letters and bulls dispensed indulgences and confirmed altars and churches, solely because of the letters and seals, we ought to esteem Baptism much more highly and more precious, because God has commanded it, and, besides, it is performed in His name. For these are the words, Go ye, baptize; however, not in your name, but in the name of God.

        10] For to be baptized in the name of God is to be baptized not by men, but by God Himself. Therefore, although it is performed by human hands, it is nevertheless truly God's own work. From this fact every one may himself readily infer that it is a far higher work than any work performed by a man or a saint. For what work greater than the work of God can we do?

        © Copyright Original Source



        http://bookofconcord.org/lc-6-baptism.php if anyone wants to read further.
        I don't read Luther's comments here the same way that Lutherans do, apparently. To me he is saying that baptism has been instituted by God, and it must be taken seriously, so that every person in the church will line up to join the crowd, "like putting on a new red coat".

        He is saying that to be baptized you must be saved, not that baptism saves you. There is nothing in that passage that states otherwise.



        I'm going to bow out of this thread now.
        Last edited by mossrose; 05-23-2017, 11:00 AM.


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
          Because, of course, that's how the Apostles and other believers had the Spirit given at Pentecost. I see it now!
          The Apostles and the other believers had surely been baptized before they were given the Spirit at Pentecost.

          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
          I received the Spirit the moment I believed. And I grew up in a denomination that taught otherwise.

          Had you been baptized before you believed?


          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
          Do course it's a work. God doesn't pick us up and dip us in the water. We get down in there ourselves! It is a work of obedience, but doing it adds nothing to salvation.
          Of course God doesn't "pick us up and dip us in the water". But the work of salvation and regeneration that takes place in Baptism is the work of God.





          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
          I don't read Luther's comments here the same way that Lutherans do, apparently. To me he is saying that baptism has been instituted by God, and it must be taken seriously, so that every person in the church will line up to join the crowd, "like putting on a new red coat".

          He is saying that to be baptized you must be saved, not that baptism saves you. There is nothing in that passage that states otherwise.
          You're wrong of course, but I can hardly fault you for that, since you could indeed read the passage I cited in that way. Just to remove any doubts about what Luther really believed about baptism, let me quote from further along in the text:

          Source: Large Catechism, Holy Baptism


          23] In the second place, since we know now what Baptism is, and how it is to be regarded, we must also learn why and for what purpose it is instituted; that is, what it profits, gives, and works. And this also we cannot discern better than from the words of Christ above quoted: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. 24] Therefore state it most simply thus, that the power, work, profit, fruit, and end of Baptism is this, namely, to save. For no one is baptized in order that he may become a prince, but, as the words declare, that he be saved. 25] But to be saved, we know, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death, and the devil, and to enter into the kingdom of Christ, and to live with Him forever.

          26] Here you see again how highly and precious we should esteem Baptism, because in it we obtain such an unspeakable treasure, which also indicates sufficiently that it cannot be ordinary mere water. For mere water could not do such a thing, but the Word does it, and (as said above) the fact that the name of God is comprehended therein. 27] But where the name of God is, there must be also life and salvation, that it may indeed be called a divine, blessed, fruitful, and gracious water; for by the Word such power is imparted to Baptism that it is a laver of regeneration, as St. Paul also calls it, Titus 3:5.

          28] But as our would-be wise, new spirits assert that faith alone saves, and that works and external things avail nothing, we answer: It is true, indeed, that nothing in us is of any avail but faith, as we shall hear still further. 29] But these blind guides are unwilling to see this, namely, that faith must have something which it believes, that is, of which it takes hold, and upon which it stands and rests. Thus faith clings to the water, and believes that it is Baptism, in which there is pure salvation and life; not through the water (as we have sufficiently stated), but through the fact that it is embodied in the Word and institution of God, and the name of God inheres in it. Now, if I believe this, what else is it than believing in God as in Him who has given and planted His Word into this ordinance, and proposes to us this external thing wherein we may apprehend such a treasure?

          © Copyright Original Source




          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
          I'm going to bow out of this thread now.
          And it was just starting to get interesting.
          ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Chrawnus
            Had you been baptized before you believed?
            No. In fact is was a few years after I became a believer that I was baptized.

            And it was just starting to get interesting.


            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              How does that square with Baptism saves you (1 Peter 3:21b-22) - a fact that even Calvin acknowledged.

              οκτω ψυχαι διεσωθησαν δι υδατος 21 ο αντιτυπον νυν και ημας σωζει βαπτισμα
              eight souls were saved through the water that antitypal now also us saves baptism.
              antitypal: nominative adjective (describing "as a mark left by pressing into," as of a signet into wax :a photographic print developed from a negative would also be an antitype)

              That: reflexive pronoun = water
              The negative is saving eight souls through water.
              the print is "that (water) now saves us"
              but not because it washes dirt from the body: because of the appeal of a clean conscience toward God.
              Baptism /immersion being the anti-type of Noah and his family "saved by water" of the flood as the type. The world that was was literally destroyed by the flood (". . . Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: . . ." -- 2 Peter 3:6). Noah and his family was literally saved from the world that was. Baptism/immersion signifies the believer being buried with Christ and so being dead to sin no longer going to live for this world but walk in the new life in Christ and live for God (Romans 6:4). If Noah and family were not in the ark they too would have perished. By the same token unless the believer is already saved by grace through faith in Christ alone - the anti-type of baptism has no meaning.
              Last edited by 37818; 05-23-2017, 03:17 PM.
              . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                No. In fact is was a few years after I became a believer that I was baptized.
                Hmm...

                In an earlier post you wrote:
                "I received the Spirit the moment I believed. And I grew up in a denomination that taught otherwise."

                Mind if I ask what denomination that was? And what exactly was it that they "taught otherwise"?
                ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                  Hmm...

                  In an earlier post you wrote:
                  "I received the Spirit the moment I believed. And I grew up in a denomination that taught otherwise."

                  Mind if I ask what denomination that was? And what exactly was it that they "taught otherwise"?
                  I grew up in the Nazarene church. They believe in the "second work of grace", where you get the Holy Spirit at a later date from when you first believe. They also taught that you can lose your salvation, but also that you become perfect after receiving the Spirit.

                  I couldn't reconcile any of that with scripture, and we eventually left the church.

                  The Spirit indwelled me at the moment of my belief, I know, because of the assurance I had and still have. I was baptized a few years later.


                  Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                    I grew up in the Nazarene church. They believe in the "second work of grace", where you get the Holy Spirit at a later date from when you first believe. They also taught that you can lose your salvation, but also that you become perfect after receiving the Spirit.

                    I couldn't reconcile any of that with scripture, and we eventually left the church.

                    The Spirit indwelled me at the moment of my belief, I know, because of the assurance I had and still have. I was baptized a few years later.
                    Thanks for the answer.
                    ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                      Thanks for the answer.


                      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        I grew up in the Nazarene church. They believe in the "second work of grace", where you get the Holy Spirit at a later date from when you first believe. They also taught that you can lose your salvation, but also that you become perfect after receiving the Spirit.

                        I couldn't reconcile any of that with scripture, and we eventually left the church.

                        The Spirit indwelled me at the moment of my belief, I know, because of the assurance I had and still have. I was baptized a few years later.
                        At first I was a Baptist, but later I became a member of the Nazarene Church for 17 years. Moved away and went back to another Baptist Church because I didn't fit in with the Nazarenes doctrinally. It was a great church, probably still is.

                        But from what I remember, the second work of grace as they taught it was entire sanctification, eradication of the carnal nature, but I don't recall them teaching that you didn't receive the Holy Spirit until that second work of grace. Maybe being filled with the spirit.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Faber View Post
                          At first I was a Baptist, but later I became a member of the Nazarene Church for 17 years. Moved away and went back to another Baptist Church because I didn't fit in with the Nazarenes doctrinally. It was a great church, probably still is.

                          But from what I remember, the second work of grace as they taught it was entire sanctification, eradication of the carnal nature, but I don't recall them teaching that you didn't receive the Holy Spirit until that second work of grace. Maybe being filled with the spirit.
                          That's not what I recall. Discussing it with different pastors over the years, I got the impression that they believe you didn't have the Spirit until that moment, different for everybody, of entire sanctification.

                          They may be changing their thinking on this. When I've talked to my brother-in-law (formerly a Nazarene pastor) about it, he says he thinks you have the Spirit at the moment of salvation and that sanctification means it is an ongoing process. He still attends a Nazarene church, but left the ministry years ago.

                          I might lure him to becoming a Baptist, but my sister is died-in-the-wool Nazarene, and she would resist that change.


                          And I grieve for her. She lives such a defeated life, no assurance of her salvation.......


                          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                            That's not what I recall. Discussing it with different pastors over the years, I got the impression that they believe you didn't have the Spirit until that moment, different for everybody, of entire sanctification.

                            They may be changing their thinking on this. When I've talked to my brother-in-law (formerly a Nazarene pastor) about it, he says he thinks you have the Spirit at the moment of salvation and that sanctification means it is an ongoing process. He still attends a Nazarene church, but left the ministry years ago.

                            I might lure him to becoming a Baptist, but my sister is died-in-the-wool Nazarene, and she would resist that change.


                            And I grieve for her. She lives such a defeated life, no assurance of her salvation.......
                            I think sometimes we make the mistake that the "denomination" is "the beliefs". I've seen, however, where a different pastor in the same Church can alter what that Church "believes"... the pastor can add his own flavor, so you hear from one Nazarene pastor (a couple of decades ago, the local Nazarene pastor was my best friend) then you hear from another, and you kind of wonder, "ok, what's the real 'Nazarene' story?"

                            As for "when you get the Holy Spirit", I probably sound like a broken record --- to me, it's not so much 'when' or 'how much' of the Holy Spirit "you get", but how much of you the Holy Spirit gets - and that's yielding ourselves to Him. With some people, that comes pretty much "up front", but with many others, it's a process over time.

                            (I believe you receive the Holy Spirit when you accept Christ as Savior, but that doesn't mean you understand, or yield all that you are to Him)
                            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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