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  • #31
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    You seem to be assuming that I am engaged in an argument with your position about something. Otherwise, why would my statement supposedly be a red herring just because you have not said something? This seems most illogical on your part. Perhaps you could let me know just what it is that you think I am arguing with you about. I doubt that I would want to participate in such an argument, but at least I would know what you are trying to argue with me about.
    By calling it a "red herring" I meant that it had absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, and is only distracting from the conversation. You may not be intending to "win an argument", but you certainly seem intent on distracting from the issue at hand.

    What I'm trying to do is get a clarification of your position, but what you've said so far clarifies nothing, and only distracts from what is being asked.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      Hello robrecht, if I'm remembering correctly, aren't you Catholic? If so, would it be off base to assume that you believe that all heresies will be repented of in purgatory? Or do you not believe in a purgatory? Maybe that's the disconnect between yourself and Cerebrum.
      I am Catholic, 'though I do not agree with every teaching of the Catholic Church. I do believe in or at least hope for a Purgatory of sorts, and suspect Jesus may have as well, as part of the Judaism of his time, so not necessarily as a doctrine of the Catholic Church. If there is a Purgatory, that would probably be a good place to continue our edification and repentance of heresies and other things, but I don't think we should delay our repentance. I can't speak for Cerebrum123,but he seems to think that the validity of at least some of my statements is somehow tied to things that he has or has not said. Most curious.
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
        I didn't make any assumptions. I said your previous posts imply that when taken together. That's why I had to ask you again.
        But you did not ask me a question. I still think you were making an assumption.

        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
        When you repeatedly imply a certain position in your posts, maybe you should at least consider that it might be the content of your posts that's the problem.
        First, learn the difference between my supposedly implying something and your inferring something. Second, what exactly is the problem that you are referring to here? I was not aware that there was a problem.

        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
        Here, answering this question will clarify things further for me. When you said that "people repent when they see the truth", are you talking about people who die and are thus seeing the Truth? If the answer is yes, then, you are clearly advocating universalism.
        Earlier, I was merely quoting someone from a movie, Pope Innocent III, actually. I don't know if he was a universalist or not, but I don't think so, and I doubt he actually said this, but it was a good line in the movie. You are misquoting me here. This is one of the reasons why I find conversations with you to be so dreary. I did not say simply "people repent when they see the truth" and it is impossible for you to understand what I said in context as somehow "talking about people who die and are thus seeing the Truth." Your misinterpretation of my words seems to be based on your desire to interrogate me about universalism, despite the fact that I have already told me you my position and offerred to provide you with more detail from published articles, but you declined that previous offer. I did say, with reference to those of us who repent of heresies, ie, none of whom are dead to the best of my knowledge, that "I think we all repent of heresies when we see the truth."

        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
        You also, again, have ignored the substance of my posts, and dodged my questions. You're also hiding behind your own ignorance.
        I completely admit to ignoring much of and many of your posts. But, again, I don't think you had asked me any questions, so I have certainly not dogged any questions, and I have not hidden from anything, least of all my own ignorance. [/QUOTE]
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

          Seriously?

          Arianism
          /ˈɛərɪəˌnɪzəm/
          noun
          1.
          the doctrine of Arius, pronounced heretical at the Council of Nicaea, which asserted that Christ was not of one substance with the Father, but a creature raised by the Father to the dignity of Son of God

          The underlined is very clearly heretical. You don't need to know much at all to know that. It's refuted quite clearly in John's Gospel.

          John 1 New International Version (NIV)

          The Word Became Flesh
          1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

          Simple reading comprehension is all that's needed to oust Arianism as false.
          I'd say that the definition of Arianism which you provided is somewhat inadequate. Arias did not deny the divinity of Jesus. He simply denied that Jesus and the Father were of one substance. I know quite a number of Christians who have held that view, ignorant of the complicated theology behind the Trinity.

          Incidentally, I'm not a fan of the usual translation of John 1:1, and prefer καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος be translated as "and the Word was divine."
          "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
          --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
            By calling it a "red herring" I meant that it had absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, and is only distracting from the conversation. You may not be intending to "win an argument", but you certainly seem intent on distracting from the issue at hand.

            What I'm trying to do is get a clarification of your position, but what you've said so far clarifies nothing, and only distracts from what is being asked.
            What is 'the subject at hand' in your opinion? And, again, why would something I said be a red herring or not, merely based on whether or not you had said or not said something? This appears to be an assumption on your part that I am engaged in an argument with you about something. If so, I think it is fair for me to ask you, once again, what it is you think we are arguing about?
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
              I'd say that the definition of Arianism which you provided is somewhat inadequate. Arias did not deny the divinity of Jesus. He simply denied that Jesus and the Father were of one substance. I know quite a number of Christians who have held that view, ignorant of the complicated theology behind the Trinity.

              Incidentally, I'm not a fan of the usual translation of John 1:1, and prefer καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος be translated as "and the Word was divine."
              From what I understand Arianism teaches that Jesus was a created being, which would mean He was not equal with the Father. Again, even if you want to use your translation[1], this doesn't fit with other Biblical teaching.

              Philippians 2:5-7New International Version (NIV)

              5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

              6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
              did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
              7 rather, he made himself nothing
              by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
              being made in human likeness.

              1. We do have John Reece Tweb's resident scholar. I think I'm going to check his threads on this. It might have been lost in the crash, if so, I can ask him to take a look at this verse specifically.

              @robreht, I have a response typed up, but I need to do something before I put it up. As for the "topic at hand" it's all about heresy, and forgiveness.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                From what I understand Arianism teaches that Jesus was a created being, which would mean He was not equal with the Father. Again, even if you want to use your translation[1], this doesn't fit with other Biblical teaching.

                Philippians 2:5-7New International Version (NIV)

                5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

                6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
                did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
                7 rather, he made himself nothing
                by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
                being made in human likeness.

                1. We do have John Reece Tweb's resident scholar. I think I'm going to check his threads on this. It might have been lost in the crash, if so, I can ask him to take a look at this verse specifically.
                The word which the NIV is translating as "nature" is μορφῇ which more usually means "form" or "shape" or "outward appearance." I don't think this verse really works against Arianism, either.
                "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                  The word which the NIV is translating as "nature" is μορφῇ which more usually means "form" or "shape" or "outward appearance." I don't think this verse really works against Arianism, either.
                  It's not the "form" part it's the "equality with God" part.

                  But again, I can try asking John Reece about this one too.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Cere, I think you are wading in a swamp trying to argue heresy with an unbeliever. Good luck with that.
                    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Examining my thoughts, I recognise that I posted this thread hoping to reassure myself that not all christians were mean-spirited narrow minded legalists. Intellectually, I know this is certain, but on this very conservative site I thought if I could get some expressions of compassion and empathy, I would feel better. Simple as that.

                      For me personally, a kind, generous heart is of much more importance than a robust 'correct' theology. I know many of you disagree and that's ok. I thank CP, robrecht and others who have written with open hearts here. You guys give me hope that Christianity is not just another club dedicated to the proposition that 'we're right and good and you're wrong and bad'.

                      I suppose the take away message for me is that we all need to think how we look to others, not to slavishly gain approval, but rather to shine with forgiving, open hearts, offering love to all as a FIRST and primary response. If you shine this way, you will be a true saint imo, and you will attract others by your great love and humility. I think people like this are real saints and I find them everywhere, in every creed.

                      I understand this is heresy to some of you and I am a deluded unbeliever, but this is what I believe with the most integrity I can muster. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe it is possible to be this kind of person and be a Christian.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                        I suppose the take away message for me is that we all need to think how we look to others, not to slavishly gain approval, but rather to shine with forgiving, open hearts, offering love to all as a FIRST and primary response. If you shine this way, you will be a true saint imo, and you will attract others by your great love and humility. I think people like this are real saints and I find them everywhere, in every creed.

                        I understand this is heresy to some of you and I am a deluded unbeliever, but this is what I believe with the most integrity I can muster. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe it is possible to be this kind of person and be a Christian.
                        The church has long struggled with the fact that some people profess Christ yet do not follow Christian principles while on the other hand some people follow Christian principles but do not profess Christ. Neither professing Christ nor following Christian principles are efficacious by themselves AFAIU.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                          Examining my thoughts, I recognise that I posted this thread hoping to reassure myself that not all christians were mean-spirited narrow minded legalists. Intellectually, I know this is certain, but on this very conservative site I thought if I could get some expressions of compassion and empathy, I would feel better. Simple as that.

                          For me personally, a kind, generous heart is of much more importance than a robust 'correct' theology. I know many of you disagree and that's ok. I thank CP, robrecht and others who have written with open hearts here. You guys give me hope that Christianity is not just another club dedicated to the proposition that 'we're right and good and you're wrong and bad'.

                          I suppose the take away message for me is that we all need to think how we look to others, not to slavishly gain approval, but rather to shine with forgiving, open hearts, offering love to all as a FIRST and primary response. If you shine this way, you will be a true saint imo, and you will attract others by your great love and humility. I think people like this are real saints and I find them everywhere, in every creed.

                          I understand this is heresy to some of you and I am a deluded unbeliever, but this is what I believe with the most integrity I can muster. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe it is possible to be this kind of person and be a Christian.
                          Oh, Jesus, don't lump me into the same group as Cow Poker. I am an honorary Southern Baptist, whereas he is an ornery Southern Baptist. Big difference! And I say this with all the mean-spirited, narrow-minded, legalistic lack of compassion and empathy, right and good robust correct theology that I can muster in my unforgiving closed heart against his wrong and bad club! I certainly and slavishly hope and arrogantly expect that you will approve of this!
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                          • #43
                            Moderated By: rogue06


                            This thread has been moved to the Prayer Request and Praise Reports forum. Please keep in mind that this is a non-debate/non-arguing area before posting

                            Thank you


                            ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                            Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.


                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                            • #44
                              If you trust in Jesus Christ you are a Christian.
                              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                                If you trust in Jesus Christ you are a Christian.
                                I regret to inform you that no debate is allowed here.

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