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The Behaviour of a particular church

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Could you elaborate? Not helping with what?
    Ya just don't kick a man when he's down, that's all.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
      Lots of small minded or pusilanimous (small souled) people, Christian or otherwise, especially if one defines 'Christian' in terms of doctrinal beliefs. Christianity is first and foremost following a way, a way of life, a way of love, a way of courageous and moral vision.
      Which of these three, do you think, was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?” He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

      If you believe and practice that, you are a Christian. Unorthodox perhpas. Heretic maybe. All heresies will be forgiven. But Christian in the sense which matters more than any other.

      Please tell me you mean those who repent of heresies.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Ya just don't kick a man when he's down, that's all.
        I wasn't kicking, he just appears to be down for dubious reasons.

        I originally had the same visceral reaction everyone else in this thread but unlike the rest of you I didn't stop thinking, even after I turned off my computer and went to bed at night. I've since concluded that the visceral reaction is a product of pancreasman's good writing skills and mostly unwarranted. Pancreasman makes a big case out of Graham's family placing their philosophy above family bonds, but in reality Graham is just as much (if not more) of a culprit. He wasn't willing to set aside his ideology for the sake of keeping his family together so he shouldn't be surprised if his family doesn't want to have anything to do with him anymore. It's entirely understandable that they might be resentful of a family head who takes them on one journey only to decide to do a 180 in the middle of it. Now I can understand why pancreasman might think everybody has an obligation to accomodate his radical changes because such an environment benefits him, but the Christian pile-on is mostly unwarranted, especially in light of pman's own admission that he has "embellished" the most important part of the story. I can also tell you that on my end I hate funerals and will not attend one if I can get away with it. And it has nothing to do with hating the dead individual.
        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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        • #19
          I have the same hopes and feelings for Pman as I did for Punkinhead when she was a Mormon. Grace works much better than baseball bats.
          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

            Please tell me you mean those who repent of heresies.
            Of course. I think we all repent of heresies when we see the truth. In the meantime, I'm not sure anyone knows the truth perfectly so I will trust God.
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Darth Executor;116141l
              ... unlike the rest of you I didn't stop thinking, even after I turned off my computer and went to bed at night. ...
              dubious assumption
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                Please tell me you mean those who repent of heresies.
                I have never cared to study the metaphysics of the Trinity and am pretty sure that whatever incoherent understanding I have would fall under heresy. That should also likely apply for many other Christians.

                I don't think God will hold that against us.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                  Those hateful, small minded people. They don't want to be 'stained' by association with this good man, this reprobate. They mumble among themselves that God killed Graham for leaving. It is very hard not to hate, I struggle with it.

                  These people are FERVENT. They are committed. They study and study. They are doctrinally conventional in most areas. How can they get it so wrong? Are they wrong? Are they Christians?
                  Perhaps, as Darth suggested, they're not hateful? It is possible to associate with someone without hating them.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    Of course. I think we all repent of heresies when we see the truth. In the meantime, I'm not sure anyone knows the truth perfectly so I will trust God.
                    This, combined with your previous quote seems to imply universalism. Especially since many people do not repent once they see the truth, only harden themselves against it.

                    I never said anything about knowing truth perfectly. That's a red herring. There's a huge difference between not having 100% perfect knowledge, and things which are 100% wrong.

                    False teachers, and those who follow them are pretty clearly condemned in the NT.

                    Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

                    2 Peter 2 New International Version (NIV)

                    False Teachers and Their Destruction
                    2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

                    Matthew 24:23-25New International Version (NIV)

                    23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

                    Revelation 14:8-10New International Version (NIV) [1]

                    8 A second angel followed and said, “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’[a] which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

                    9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

                    2 Timothy 2:14 [ Dealing With False Teachers ] Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

                    1 Timothy 6:19-21New International Version (NIV) [2]

                    19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

                    20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith.

                    Grace be with you all.

                    [1] These are people fooled by the False Prophet, so it falls under false teaching.
                    [2] These are people who are leaving Christianity for the Gnostic heresy.

                    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                    I have never cared to study the metaphysics of the Trinity and am pretty sure that whatever incoherent understanding I have would fall under heresy. That should also likely apply for many other Christians.

                    I don't think God will hold that against us.
                    Seriously? You are comparing that to "all heresies will be forgiven"? Surely you can see the difference between a damnable heresy(ie Gnosticism, Arianism, "no gospel at all", etc.), and a somewhat imperfect understanding of a complicated doctrine, right?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                      This, combined with your previous quote seems to imply universalism. ...
                      Seeing as you've already asked me about my position with respect to universalism, and I've answered you, it seems silly for you to make assumptions about this.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                        Seriously? You are comparing that to "all heresies will be forgiven"? Surely you can see the difference between a damnable heresy(ie Gnosticism, Arianism, "no gospel at all", etc.), and a somewhat imperfect understanding of a complicated doctrine, right?
                        I'm not sure what you mean by 'damnable', and how you arrive at that conclusion for Arianism, for example. As to imperfect understanding of a complicated doctrine that is heresy, I only see that it only poses a problem for those who choose to claim that heretics are not Christians or that heretics will not be saved or the like, because many lay Christians do have such imperfect understandings and thus believe heresies.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                          Seriously? You are comparing that to "all heresies will be forgiven"? Surely you can see the difference between a damnable heresy(ie Gnosticism, Arianism, "no gospel at all", etc.), and a somewhat imperfect understanding of a complicated doctrine, right?
                          I don't know about Paprika, but I certainly don't see the difference which you find to be so obvious. Especially since Arianism actually is just a minor difference in the understanding of a complicated doctrine.
                          "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                          --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                            I never said anything about knowing truth perfectly. That's a red herring.
                            You seem to be assuming that I am engaged in an argument with your position about something. Otherwise, why would my statement supposedly be a red herring just because you have not said something? This seems most illogical on your part. Perhaps you could let me know just what it is that you think I am arguing with you about. I doubt that I would want to participate in such an argument, but at least I would know what you are trying to argue with me about.
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hello robrecht, if I'm remembering correctly, aren't you Catholic? If so, would it be off base to assume that you believe that all heresies will be repented of in purgatory? Or do you not believe in a purgatory? Maybe that's the disconnect between yourself and Cerebrum.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                                Seeing as you've already asked me about my position with respect to universalism, and I've answered you, it seems silly for you to make assumptions about this.
                                I didn't make any assumptions. I said your previous posts imply that when taken together. That's why I had to ask you again. When you repeatedly imply a certain position in your posts, maybe you should at least consider that it might be the content of your posts that's the problem.

                                Here, answering this question will clarify things further for me. When you said that "people repent when they see the truth", are you talking about people who die and are thus seeing the Truth? If the answer is yes, then, you are clearly advocating universalism.

                                You also, again, have ignored the substance of my posts, and dodged my questions. You're also hiding behind your own ignorance.

                                Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                                I'm not sure what you mean by 'damnable', and how you arrive at that conclusion for Arianism, for example. As to imperfect understanding of a complicated doctrine that is heresy, I only see that it only poses a problem for those who choose to claim that heretics are not Christians or that heretics will not be saved or the like, because many lay Christians do have such imperfect understandings and thus believe heresies.

                                You really can't see how a heretic isn't a real Christian? I just gave examples of how the NT writers had false teachers, and those who followed them as not Christian. They condemned them in very strong terms. Their teachings are foolishness, and those who follow them end in ruin. What they teach was even said to be "no gospel at all", meaning it wasn't Christianity at all.

                                Arianism denies that Christ is LORD, which is not in any way shape or form what Christianity teaches. As for "damnable heresies" I mean the kind that put one outside the Body of Christ, and would mean that they are not saved.

                                Gnosticism, Arianism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, all fall well into a category that is clearly heretical. robrecht says all of these will be forgiven, and that all people repent when they "see the truth".

                                If he answers yes to my question, then you need to answer if you agree with him on that.

                                If a Christian isn't at least trying to make their views align with the Bible, then they are failing this admonition.

                                2 Timothy 2:14-16New International Version (NIV)

                                Dealing With False Teachers
                                14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.

                                And if it's due to a teacher, well, teachers have more to answer for.

                                James 3:1 [ Taming the Tongue ] Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

                                Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                                I don't know about Paprika, but I certainly don't see the difference which you find to be so obvious. Especially since Arianism actually is just a minor difference in the understanding of a complicated doctrine.

                                Seriously?

                                Arianism
                                /ˈɛərɪəˌnɪzəm/
                                noun
                                1.
                                the doctrine of Arius, pronounced heretical at the Council of Nicaea, which asserted that Christ was not of one substance with the Father, but a creature raised by the Father to the dignity of Son of God

                                The underlined is very clearly heretical. You don't need to know much at all to know that. It's refuted quite clearly in John's Gospel.

                                John 1 New International Version (NIV)

                                The Word Became Flesh
                                1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

                                Simple reading comprehension is all that's needed to oust Arianism as false.

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