Would like to know how preterist or DF see this in thier fullfilment cronology

2 Thessalonians mentions the day of the Lord, Letters and rumors apparently circulating that the day of the Lord was at hand or had come.

Paul tells them that the time appointed wouldn’t come until the man of sin first is reveled. If one believes that most all things have happened who was the man of Sin? If it is yet future how does the man of sin come to power.

Any takers on this.

Originally posted by maudman

Would like to know how preterist or DF see this in thier fullfilment cronology

2 Thessalonians mentions the day of the Lord, Letters and rumors apparently circulating that the day of the Lord was at hand or had come.

Paul tells them that the time appointed wouldn’t come until the man of sin first is reveled. If one believes that most all things have happened who was the man of Sin? If it is yet future how does the man of sin come to power.

Any takers on this.

Only preterists or DF? How about a third (historicist) view?

The pope sits in the spiritual Temple — the Church — and Islam occupies God's place on Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

Since the Roman empire's collapse radical Islam has ruled the Middle East, repudiating the gods of their fathers. (Daniel 11:36-39) Radical Islam set itself up on the "holy mountain" (Temple Mount) (Daniel 11:45) This "man of lawlessness…opposes and exalts himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, and even sets himself up in God's temple" (2 Thess. 2:3-4 NIV) The Islamic Dome of the Rock sits in God's place on Temple Mount

"Lyke as Mahomet saith ty his Alcoran is ye soveraine wisdome, so saith the Pope of his owne decrees: For they be the two hornes of Antichrist."
—John Calvin

"the Pope is the spirit of antichrist, and the Turk [Muslim] is the flesh of antichrist. They help each other in their murderous work. The latter slaughters bodily by the sword; and the former spiritually by doctrine."
—Martin Luther

"what is the Pope doing? He is sitting not in the natural temple or God's house, but in the spiritual, in the new and living temple of which Paul says: 'If any man destroyeth the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are,' I Cor. 3, 16-17. ... Thus you see whether the Pope is not the greatest arch-abomination of all abominations, to whom Christ and Daniel refer; and the true Antichrist, of whom it is written that he sitteth in the temple of God, among the people, where Christ is named and where his kingdom, spirit, baptism, Word and faith should be...."
—Martin Luther, "Sermon for the Twenty-Fifth Sunday after Trinity; Matthew 24:15-28" from his Church Postil, first published in 1525

This is essentially the view that prevailed among Bible believers from before the Reformation until the early 1900's.

David

Originally posted by David_A_Reed

Only preterists or DF? How about a third (historicist) view?

The pope sits in the spiritual Temple — the Church — and Islam occupies God's place on Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

Since the Roman empire's collapse radical Islam has ruled the Middle East, repudiating the gods of their fathers. (Daniel 11:36-39) Radical Islam set itself up on the "holy mountain" (Temple Mount) (Daniel 11:45) This "man of lawlessness…opposes and exalts himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, and even sets himself up in God's temple" (2 Thess. 2:3-4 NIV) The Islamic Dome of the Rock sits in God's place on Temple Mount

"Lyke as Mahomet saith ty his Alcoran is ye soveraine wisdome, so saith the Pope of his owne decrees: For they be the two hornes of Antichrist."
—John Calvin

"the Pope is the spirit of antichrist, and the Turk [Muslim] is the flesh of antichrist. They help each other in their murderous work. The latter slaughters bodily by the sword; and the former spiritually by doctrine."
—Martin Luther

"what is the Pope doing? He is sitting not in the natural temple or God's house, but in the spiritual, in the new and living temple of which Paul says: 'If any man destroyeth the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are,' I Cor. 3, 16-17. ... Thus you see whether the Pope is not the greatest arch-abomination of all abominations, to whom Christ and Daniel refer; and the true Antichrist, of whom it is written that he sitteth in the temple of God, among the people, where Christ is named and where his kingdom, spirit, baptism, Word and faith should be...."
—Martin Luther, "Sermon for the Twenty-Fifth Sunday after Trinity; Matthew 24:15-28" from his Church Postil, first published in 1525

This is essentially the view that prevailed among Bible believers from before the Reformation until the early 1900's.

David

Hello David, Thank you for your reply.

I’m glad you had the guts to reply. And I welcome all views that many have because there are many and yours would definitely fall into a protestant view on this topic.

I think the historical prospective is important. You mention the Pope and Islam, You make distinction or the spiritual temple and historically the temporal one, and I take from the most current media reports that many may have a heighten sense of awareness from this perspective or ones similar to it with varying interpretations on different areas.

I want to ask some Questions. 1st How much of what we believe is the truth concerning this scenario actually derived from the scripture? If one takes such a view apart from historical personalities such as Luther, which I find and important part of this scenario and also biblical text. A closer look at 2 Thessalonians and others maybe needed.


2nd is it the office of papal authority, the position of Pope Core to this belief that is seen in itself as evil in the spiritual temple?

Many preterist and DF share the belief of papal authority itself to be the evil. This is core to many protestant beliefs.

3rd are people willing to be challenged in their beliefs?

If Christ said take heed that you be not deceived for many shall come in my Name saying I (Jesus) am the Christ and deceive the many. How can people come in the name of Christ and deceive.

Peace David

And Again thank your for your reply.

This thread must be hard.

Why does everybody seems to have answers, but when ask to explain or verify why people say what they say there are none. Is there anybody who has answers or is it that you really don't know? Or that 2 Thessalonians can be interpreted differently.

Surely all the Pope demonizing faithful can justify with scripture why you say what you say. Please help me I’m a struggling catholic.

Is this a voice crying in a protestant wilderness? Surely the Patriots of Luther, and Calvin can engage with the sword of their Lord (Luther).

What is so hard about this thread? Is it that people have been speaking with no knowledge?

Originally posted by maudman

This thread must be hard.

Why does everybody seems to have answers, but when ask to explain or verify why people say what they say there are none. Is there anybody who has answers or is it that you really don't know? Or that 2 Thessalonians can be interpreted differently.

Surely all the Pope demonizing faithful can justify with scripture why you say what you say. Please help me I’m a struggling catholic.

Is this a voice crying in a protestant wilderness? Surely the Patriots of Luther, and Calvin can engage with the sword of their Lord (Luther).

What is so hard about this thread? Is it that people have been speaking with no knowledge?

Hmmm could it be that this has been addressed many times already and your fienged ignorance puts up a red flag?

Originally posted by Hitch

Hmmm could it be that this has been addressed many times already and your fienged ignorance puts up a red flag?

Hello Hitch,

Nice to Here from you,

Maybe you can help me then?

The Red Flag means something that should be followed up on immediately, because procrastination would lead to greater problems. So let me give you something to follow up on Ole Hitch. Message some of your Pope demonizing buddies and go to work on what I’m typing and show me my Ignorance. Debate the text not your presupposition, I’m a Red Flag, all I can say is thanks.

‘’’’’’’’’’2 Thessalonians 2

1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.’’’’’’’’’’

Not much to interpret here it’s simple. Rumors and letters sent to Christians from apostates that were trying to convince the church that Christ hand already returned.


‘’’’’’’’’ 3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;’’’’’

Simple here too!! you will know when our Lord draws near because this man of sin would cause a falling away, This type of Man would rise up and convince others in the church, “the ones the apostles were laboring to preserve” to leave the church.

Who rises and causes the following away the Pope? Get real he was working to preserve the existing establishment. He was the existing spokes person that represented the Church the existing establishment.

The Son of perdition causes the falling away from the existing establishment “the Church”. And only Luther and his Gang did exactly what the scriptures say. Take heed that you be not deceived by any means. The deception would cause many to fall away.



4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This man rises above the established Authority of the Church. In others words, His words would be aimed with the intent to undermine the work that God had established. So that his message would trump Gods, the unity of the Church and the grace that bound it was second to the importance of “”his message””.


‘’’’’’ 5. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6. And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.’’’’’’

Nothing hard to understand here, the only thing that kept the man of sin, the son of perdition from tearing apart the church was the Holy Spirit, Once taken out of the way, he could now deceive others. Once he that now lettith was taken out of the way, those just like him would jump on the train of perdition.

“”””””8. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,””””

Nothing hard to understand here either, This man would set out to transform the social structure under the deception of “”religious reform”. He would take the Light of the church and seek to transpose it in the world. He would seek to apply the attributes of the church to the temporal authority Satan.

In other words He would seek to transform Satan into an angel of Light.

Seeking to undermine the foundations of the church that was largely composed of the poor and oppressed. Causing them to rise up against the authority of the church. IN others words he deceived others through the cares of this world (social reform).


Choose your words wisely Ole Hitch, if you and your Pope demonizing cronies have the guts to respond intellegntly.

LOL arw you mickey in drag?

Originally posted by Hitch

LOL arw you mickey in drag?

No I'm worse, Just stick to the text Ole Hitch.

I will have to say this you chose your words wisely, The fewer the better.

But surely one as ignorant as me is easily over come.Surley my words can easily be proven wrong. Where are all the proof texter out there. Surely I'm at the end of my rope.

Nay I'm just beginning.

Who shall rise up and shut the doors that have been opened. Who among lord Luthers' seed, who see the Pope as such evil shut the door. Who has the guts and stand up and post in defense of presupposition. Who shall rise up with Holy Writ and cast down that which has been presented.

Choose your words wisely Ole Hitch. There's much more, aren't you just dying to see how ignorant I can get.

Aren't just dying to know why the all the warnings are about those being temped to walk away from the church. Aren't You just dying to know why the Apostle were concerned about those that are leaving the church, Laboring against those leaving.

What man among you will rise up. Who is your champion.

Well M the level of interest in you and your chosen topic is evident.

Originally posted by Hitch

Well M the level of interest in you and your chosen topic is evident.

It's not intrest.

It takes guts to hang it online in the name of truth. I don't think people are evil who hold fast to what they believe is true. Deception can cause people to say or do evil things, the people themselves are often victims ignorant or otherwise.

But thats not what its about. Post don't Go up because of interst but because of wiggle room. Where there is no wiggle room not much can be said unless one has a strong argument.

Most people think that because they have a thread that is large and full of rehtoric that they have done something, but that just shows people can't explain well what they are saying or there is no truth in them just the spirit of debate.

Iv'e never seen twebbers turn down a chance to strangle people with their own words. Especially a topic of this nature. People sit waiting to pounce. When in their mind they know their right.

Denial or more an accurate description, And maybe even contempt.

I think it reflects clarity when little can be said, not lack of interest.

I'm saying things that can be taken as offensive. Where is David Reed`in defense of his historical evidence. And I have said little. If anyone wants to look at history and the bible I'll be glad to discuss. I'm not afraid to be challenged in my beliefs. I welcome it.

Surely a man as ignorant as me deserves some kind of pitty, reproof and correction with a loving had of Gods people. It's not lack of intrest Hitch.

Peace.

Originally posted by maudman

Would like to know how preterist or DF see this in thier fullfilment cronology

2 Thessalonians mentions the day of the Lord, Letters and rumors apparently circulating that the day of the Lord was at hand or had come.

Paul tells them that the time appointed wouldn’t come until the man of sin first is reveled. If one believes that most all things have happened who was the man of Sin? If it is yet future how does the man of sin come to power.

Any takers on this.

You are the man of sin, the son of Perdition...

Seriously.

Jesus tells His disciples that they are the son of the devil (John 8).

John the Baptizer calls the Pharisees Sons of the Serpent.

David and Solomon tell us that all men are liars and there is no truth in them.

Paul describes the old creature and the new creature in Romans.

Christ cannot be resurrected in you until you can agree that like Paul you are the chief of sinners, the man of sin, of your father the devil.

The appointed time is NOW! Any other time is you lying to yourself.

Originally posted by David_A_Reed

Only preterists or DF? How about a third (historicist) view?

The pope sits in the spiritual Temple — the Church — and Islam occupies God's place on Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

Since the Roman empire's collapse radical Islam has ruled the Middle East, repudiating the gods of their fathers. (Daniel 11:36-39) Radical Islam set itself up on the "holy mountain" (Temple Mount) (Daniel 11:45) This "man of lawlessness…opposes and exalts himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, and even sets himself up in God's temple" (2 Thess. 2:3-4 NIV) The Islamic Dome of the Rock sits in God's place on Temple Mount

"Lyke as Mahomet saith ty his Alcoran is ye soveraine wisdome, so saith the Pope of his owne decrees: For they be the two hornes of Antichrist."
—John Calvin

"the Pope is the spirit of antichrist, and the Turk [Muslim] is the flesh of antichrist. They help each other in their murderous work. The latter slaughters bodily by the sword; and the former spiritually by doctrine."
—Martin Luther

"what is the Pope doing? He is sitting not in the natural temple or God's house, but in the spiritual, in the new and living temple of which Paul says: 'If any man destroyeth the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are,' I Cor. 3, 16-17. ... Thus you see whether the Pope is not the greatest arch-abomination of all abominations, to whom Christ and Daniel refer; and the true Antichrist, of whom it is written that he sitteth in the temple of God, among the people, where Christ is named and where his kingdom, spirit, baptism, Word and faith should be...."
—Martin Luther, "Sermon for the Twenty-Fifth Sunday after Trinity; Matthew 24:15-28" from his Church Postil, first published in 1525

This is essentially the view that prevailed among Bible believers from before the Reformation until the early 1900's.

David

I generally agree with this view.

Rev 13:5 ESV

And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.

Forty and two months or 1260 years. The Vatican exercised soveriegn power from 605-1265AD, 1260 years.

Originally posted by commonman

You are the man of sin, the son of Perdition...

Seriously.

Jesus tells His disciples that they are the son of the devil (John 8).

John the Baptizer calls the Pharisees Sons of the Serpent.

David and Solomon tell us that all men are liars and there is no truth in them.

Paul describes the old creature and the new creature in Romans.

Christ cannot be resurrected in you until you can agree that like Paul you are the chief of sinners, the man of sin, of your father the devil.

The appointed time is NOW! Any other time is you lying to yourself.

YOu do error.

Judist Iscariot was the first son Of perdition. Do you KNow why! NO you Don't

Originally posted by maudman

YOu do error.

Judist Iscariot was the first son Of perdition. Do you KNow why! NO you Don't

John 17:12

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Now as to whether you are as well remains to be seen.

Originally posted by maudman

YOu do error.

Judist Iscariot was the first son Of perdition. Do you KNow why! NO you Don't

The first Son of Perdition was Adam, from whom you are descended. Do YOU know why?

He made himself like God, judging for himself good and evil.

Do you judge good and evil, son of the serpent?!

Originally posted by commonman

The first Son of Perdition was Adam, from whom you are descended. Do YOU know why?

He made himself like God, judging for himself good and evil.

Do you judge good and evil, son of the serpent?!

"The man of sin" was a term used in 1 Macabees to describe Antiochus. The "son of perdition" was used to describe Judas. Whomever Paul was referring to will be like both of those men in one way or another. But it ain't the pope. This man will not be revealed until the restrainer is removed. I believe the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, as He is the only one who can restrain the power of the Devil... take it from there.